New lowering/lifting Device

JayD · 20th August 2007, 03:59 PM

Hi All,
Well I'm about to make a new lowering/lifting device, Hopefully on the cheap..but not on quality, So I thought I would raise a few pionts in the way I make this. So on the brake side of the device a bigger radius is better???also I'm thinking of incorporating a boat winch in as well, either mounted below the brake, or taxing the mechinism and incorporating into the brake drum some how??any suggestions?.. and by the way i'm not trying to reinvent the wheel,just a cheaper device,with materials at hand.Any Ideas?

brake pipe dia: 130mm

Winch : hand cranking 2000lbs

Mounting plate:Flat plate??large section of channel??

This is what I have so far.
JayD

Ekka · 20th August 2007, 04:34 PM

The channel.

Where it meets the tree have it serrated (saw toothed) so it bites. Also have it just long enough for the mounting straps coz it's bloody heavy.

Where the lowering drum goes into the channel, welding alone I'm very suss on. Be great if it were bored and press fit in welded both sides, perhaps even a flange collar on the front to distribute the load across the channel. That would also prevent weekening from welding at the same place

Tree Machine · 20th August 2007, 05:36 PM

If anyone can do it, Jay D, you can.

I can't claim to know much in the ways of tree-mounted bollard/winch systems, have messed with a few at tree shows, but never actually used one.

I have a 12V capstan rope-winch (power bollard) I got from a place called surplus supply. I think it was built to go on a battleship or something. It will replace the 12V cable winch on my chipper. Maybe something like that can be used, like figure out the mounting system, get a pair of jumper cables, car battery and go to town. I only mention this because they say they will ship anywhere and it cost me somewhere over $300 usd, which isn't bad, considering.

OK, that may be stretching it a bit, the power bollard (but maybe not???) but if you will use a boat winch, I have a very good suggestion. On my biggest log arch there is a two-stage winch, one regular speed, and a second gearing in which the speed goes to half, the power goes to double and the direction of the rotation of the winch handle reverses. The boat winch itself isn't all that much bigger than a normal one, but it is the cool bomb. The high-to-low gear changeover can be done under load. Hope those links in the previous sentences help better describe what it is I'm describing.

JayD · 29th August 2007, 01:44 AM

Hi Boys and Girl's,
I've been doing heaps of thought on this device,I'm a little torn which way to go!, Firstly I have a 2000lb boat winch which I'm thinking about taxing the mechanism and adapting it to a rotating bollard similar to what you see already on the market but running on a trailer axle with bearings, with what you drew Ekka, very similar mounting but I was going to gusset and weld for support and to spread the stress of it working underload, The other thought running thru my mind is having the breaking system stationary with a come-a long mounted of to one side so it's easy to use, Remember I'm trying to do this as cheaply as possible,but not on quality..so it's safe to use not some try hard 2 bob approach....yeah you can say buy lewmar and just mount it, but then we have not achieved anything but pinched someones idea,I like their concept, But the price is a bit steep,so which way would should I go??
JayD

Ekka · 29th August 2007, 05:17 AM

Well personally.

Have a porty or a GRCS style boat winch job. No need for a go between really, you get pissed off having a new lowering device that doesn't winch ... not worth the work IMHO.

TrevMcRev · 30th August 2007, 12:48 AM

I agree with ekka, if you keep a keen eye out you can pick up a good 2nd hand yacht winch from $200-500 for a standard winch or $400-$800 fro a self tailing winch. The harken winch alone on a GRCS retails for about $1800! Thats what makes them so expensive. Score a cheap winch, fabricate the rest which will be only the same amount of work as what your looking at doing anyway, then youve got yourself an awesome tool real cheap. Ive got the bits, just need the time to get it put together now.

JayD · 30th August 2007, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrevMcRev

I agree with ekka, if you keep a keen eye out you can pick up a good 2nd hand yacht winch from $200-500 for a standard winch or $400-$800 fro a self tailing winch. The harken winch alone on a GRCS retails for about $1800! Thats what makes them so expensive. Score a cheap winch, fabricate the rest which will be only the same amount of work as what your looking at doing anyway, then youve got yourself an awesome tool real cheap. Ive got the bits, just need the time to get it put together now.

So true,Ekka, Trev,
I think i'll hold off until I make my mind up, Good luck with yours Trev.

Therrin · 13th November 2007, 03:18 AM

Well this fits the catagory, but I'm feelin a little low-tech here...

I had bought a 6-bar BMS descending Rack. It's made of stainless steel, is tested at 2,000 lbs, and the frame strength is in excess of 20,000 lbs. Works with two ropes. Dimensions: Length 13"; Width 5"; Depth 3/4". Made by Bassett Metal Studios. Nice thing is it's got a double hyper-bar on it, allowing for really easy tie-off of one or two ropes. I'm still stuck with groundies who I don't trust to touch ropes yet, so for many contracts I still do the rigging, the cutting, and control the lowering; and they just unclip it at the bottom. (some I have convinced that they're lucky they get to do that.... and haven't figured out that *without* them doin that I'd be royally screwed. Not so bright huh? Yeah, its scary.)

Up until now I've been using a rescue-sized figure 8...lol... Just doin what I was used to. Got sick of it twisting my ropes, etc. So the new Rack shows up, and I take it out for its first run. 80ft Pine TD, simple stuff. Got everything all set up, took some special precautions since it was a new piece and I was unfamiliar with it, and rushed right into attempting to drop a 15 foot piece with it..... I goofed, my fault, got hasty, gotta learn to calm down. It jammed up tight, no budging. I accidentally put the load on the "top" side of the rope instead of from the bottom. Mostly an innocent mistake, though I couldn't claim to have ever seen one used before. (doh!) Had to flip back down to below where it was clipped in and cut the bottom of the branch off. Got it down to a workable 75 pound chunk that I was able to unweight using a second anchor point, and my anti-return pulley ( Petzl Minitraxion).

What a mess! I planned for possible problems, got one, solved it, and lost only my time. But learned a valuable lesson about rigging with that device.

Does anyone else use these?

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c..._1973_59716829

shaggs · 13th November 2007, 02:39 PM

G'day Therrin
Haven't used on like you have in the pic. Only a normal rappel rack for abseiling etc. Like you said, you rig from the bottom up. Ie if you have a five bar rack and only rig three bars for your size then start from the bottom. In theory that way you can add wraps whilst on rope. I haven't actually done this myself but I assume there is a practised technique to this.
They are a good device. Inline anything definately beats twisting eights.
Any pic of he device in action??
Cheers

newguy18 · 13th November 2007, 07:04 PM

okay I don't know if you came up with a device yet jayd but if its okay with Ekka I'll posta few limks to companies the sell winchs and things that i pesonally think could be made into lowering devices.

JayD · 13th November 2007, 10:53 PM

It doesn't bother me, Clear the links with Ekka first,Just holding off on making this device has paid off in Good ideas, such as were the comercialy made lowering devices fall short..I dont know if Trev's gone any further with he's idea? Problem is..and I'm not kidding..Is TIME ITSELF..to do it..and then get it certified..Which means I have to make two..Just reading posts about developing differant tools,climbing,lowering lifting,It's all food for thought but you have to realise what's good idea.
JayD

PS, Nice to hear your smarter and wiser now,..RE Tree Work.

shaggs · 14th November 2007, 01:39 AM

rsz_lowerdevice1.jpg

rsz_lowerdevice2.jpg

rsz_1rsz_lowerdevice3.jpg
Hey guys
Here are some pics of my own lowering device. It's the second one I made about 14yrs ago as there were no commercial ones available. Its simple compared to the self tailing one available now but if your making one on a budget you may get some ideas.
Its a piece of steel channel (UC) with a single speed capstan I got from a second hand shipyard. I welded "ears" for a truck strap (although on really big trees we use chain with truck tensioner), welded a steel crab for a rope guide, and a loop at the bottom for a redirect. VERY simple and cost less than $150 to make.
It is not rated although initially we did alot of lifts/controlled lowers with it and nothing has bent/broken. The only change is the crab now compared to the initial rope guide which the groundies requested and like. The truck strap gets changed each year.
We use 16mm 3 strand and 18mm double braid. Three raps with the double braid and we can lift good size timber.
A two speed would be nice, and a self tailer even better. But we all love this one and has served us very very well.
We can get alot of tension with the strap and only occasionally "bed" the device into a tree when doing a takedown.
Hope this helps.

Ekka · 14th November 2007, 01:42 AM

You can post links as a matter of discussion of course.

To clear the air on this it's links to other rival forums that wont work, links dropped by advertisers like spamming (usually starting a thread though).

Remember, all links out of here are rel=nofollow so they dont get much juice. But links for the purpose of discussion or expanding the topic, illustrating things etc, cool.

JayD · 14th November 2007, 02:26 AM

Nice Shaggs, Simple, Price is right, But I want something that bridges the gap where these ideas fall short, They have been mentioned in other posts.As soon as I get some spare time I will be addressing this device...maybe over Xmas?

newguy18 · 14th November 2007, 08:00 AM

Heres a few links.Hope these help.
Surplus Center
Pressure Washers, Portable Generators, Mowers, Lawn + Garden | Northern Tool + Equipment
W. W. Patterson Homepage
Sail Gear - Winches - Andersen Self Tailing Winch 46ST 50246 - Discount Yacht Supplies, Nautical Accessories, Parts, Marine Electronics, Garmin, Humminbird, Lowrance, Jensen, Jbl

20th August 2007, 03:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
JayD Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 941	New lowering/lifting Device Hi All, Well I'm about to make a new lowering/lifting device, Hopefully on the cheap..but not on quality, So I thought I would raise a few pionts in the way I make this. So on the brake side of the device a bigger radius is better???also I'm thinking of incorporating a boat winch in as well, either mounted below the brake, or taxing the mechinism and incorporating into the brake drum some how??any suggestions?.. and by the way i'm not trying to reinvent the wheel,just a cheaper device,with materials at hand.Any Ideas? brake pipe dia: 130mm Winch : hand cranking 2000lbs Mounting plate:Flat plate??large section of channel?? This is what I have so far. JayD __________________ Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory

29th August 2007, 01:44 AM	#4 (permalink)
JayD Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 941	Hi Boys and Girl's, I've been doing heaps of thought on this device,I'm a little torn which way to go!, Firstly I have a 2000lb boat winch which I'm thinking about taxing the mechanism and adapting it to a rotating bollard similar to what you see already on the market but running on a trailer axle with bearings, with what you drew Ekka, very similar mounting but I was going to gusset and weld for support and to spread the stress of it working underload, The other thought running thru my mind is having the breaking system stationary with a come-a long mounted of to one side so it's easy to use, Remember I'm trying to do this as cheaply as possible,but not on quality..so it's safe to use not some try hard 2 bob approach....yeah you can say buy lewmar and just mount it, but then we have not achieved anything but pinched someones idea,I like their concept, But the price is a bit steep,so which way would should I go?? JayD __________________ Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory

29th August 2007, 05:17 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,932	Well personally. Have a porty or a GRCS style boat winch job. No need for a go between really, you get pissed off having a new lowering device that doesn't winch ... not worth the work IMHO. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

30th August 2007, 12:48 AM	#6 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	I agree with ekka, if you keep a keen eye out you can pick up a good 2nd hand yacht winch from $200-500 for a standard winch or $400-$800 fro a self tailing winch. The harken winch alone on a GRCS retails for about $1800! Thats what makes them so expensive. Score a cheap winch, fabricate the rest which will be only the same amount of work as what your looking at doing anyway, then youve got yourself an awesome tool real cheap. Ive got the bits, just need the time to get it put together now. __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

13th November 2007, 03:18 AM	#8 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: New lowering/lifting Device Well this fits the catagory, but I'm feelin a little low-tech here... I had bought a 6-bar BMS descending Rack. It's made of stainless steel, is tested at 2,000 lbs, and the frame strength is in excess of 20,000 lbs. Works with two ropes. Dimensions: Length 13"; Width 5"; Depth 3/4". Made by Bassett Metal Studios. Nice thing is it's got a double hyper-bar on it, allowing for really easy tie-off of one or two ropes. I'm still stuck with groundies who I don't trust to touch ropes yet, so for many contracts I still do the rigging, the cutting, and control the lowering; and they just unclip it at the bottom. (some I have convinced that they're lucky they get to do that.... and haven't figured out that without them doin that I'd be royally screwed. Not so bright huh? Yeah, its scary.) Up until now I've been using a rescue-sized figure 8...lol... Just doin what I was used to. Got sick of it twisting my ropes, etc. So the new Rack shows up, and I take it out for its first run. 80ft Pine TD, simple stuff. Got everything all set up, took some special precautions since it was a new piece and I was unfamiliar with it, and rushed right into attempting to drop a 15 foot piece with it..... I goofed, my fault, got hasty, gotta learn to calm down. It jammed up tight, no budging. I accidentally put the load on the "top" side of the rope instead of from the bottom. Mostly an innocent mistake, though I couldn't claim to have ever seen one used before. (doh!) Had to flip back down to below where it was clipped in and cut the bottom of the branch off. Got it down to a workable 75 pound chunk that I was able to unweight using a second anchor point, and my anti-return pulley ( Petzl Minitraxion). What a mess! I planned for possible problems, got one, solved it, and lost only my time. But learned a valuable lesson about rigging with that device. Does anyone else use these? http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c..._1973_59716829 __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

13th November 2007, 02:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
shaggs Mature tree Join Date: May 2007 Location: sydney Posts: 462	Re: New lowering/lifting Device G'day Therrin Haven't used on like you have in the pic. Only a normal rappel rack for abseiling etc. Like you said, you rig from the bottom up. Ie if you have a five bar rack and only rig three bars for your size then start from the bottom. In theory that way you can add wraps whilst on rope. I haven't actually done this myself but I assume there is a practised technique to this. They are a good device. Inline anything definately beats twisting eights. Any pic of he device in action?? Cheers

13th November 2007, 07:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,679	Re: New lowering/lifting Device okay I don't know if you came up with a device yet jayd but if its okay with Ekka I'll posta few limks to companies the sell winchs and things that i pesonally think could be made into lowering devices. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

13th November 2007, 10:53 PM	#11 (permalink)
JayD Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 941	Re: New lowering/lifting Device It doesn't bother me, Clear the links with Ekka first,Just holding off on making this device has paid off in Good ideas, such as were the comercialy made lowering devices fall short..I dont know if Trev's gone any further with he's idea? Problem is..and I'm not kidding..Is TIME ITSELF..to do it..and then get it certified..Which means I have to make two..Just reading posts about developing differant tools,climbing,lowering lifting,It's all food for thought but you have to realise what's good idea. JayD PS, Nice to hear your smarter and wiser now,..RE Tree Work. __________________ Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory

14th November 2007, 01:39 AM	#12 (permalink)
shaggs Mature tree Join Date: May 2007 Location: sydney Posts: 462	Re: New lowering/lifting Device rsz_lowerdevice1.jpg rsz_lowerdevice2.jpg rsz_1rsz_lowerdevice3.jpg Hey guys Here are some pics of my own lowering device. It's the second one I made about 14yrs ago as there were no commercial ones available. Its simple compared to the self tailing one available now but if your making one on a budget you may get some ideas. Its a piece of steel channel (UC) with a single speed capstan I got from a second hand shipyard. I welded "ears" for a truck strap (although on really big trees we use chain with truck tensioner), welded a steel crab for a rope guide, and a loop at the bottom for a redirect. VERY simple and cost less than $150 to make. It is not rated although initially we did alot of lifts/controlled lowers with it and nothing has bent/broken. The only change is the crab now compared to the initial rope guide which the groundies requested and like. The truck strap gets changed each year. We use 16mm 3 strand and 18mm double braid. Three raps with the double braid and we can lift good size timber. A two speed would be nice, and a self tailer even better. But we all love this one and has served us very very well. We can get alot of tension with the strap and only occasionally "bed" the device into a tree when doing a takedown. Hope this helps.

14th November 2007, 01:42 AM	#13 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,932	Re: New lowering/lifting Device You can post links as a matter of discussion of course. To clear the air on this it's links to other rival forums that wont work, links dropped by advertisers like spamming (usually starting a thread though). Remember, all links out of here are rel=nofollow so they dont get much juice. But links for the purpose of discussion or expanding the topic, illustrating things etc, cool. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

14th November 2007, 02:26 AM	#14 (permalink)
JayD Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 941	Re: New lowering/lifting Device Nice Shaggs, Simple, Price is right, But I want something that bridges the gap where these ideas fall short, They have been mentioned in other posts.As soon as I get some spare time I will be addressing this device...maybe over Xmas? __________________ Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory

14th November 2007, 08:00 AM	#15 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,679	Re: New lowering/lifting Device Heres a few links.Hope these help. Surplus Center Pressure Washers, Portable Generators, Mowers, Lawn + Garden \| Northern Tool + Equipment W. W. Patterson Homepage Sail Gear - Winches - Andersen Self Tailing Winch 46ST 50246 - Discount Yacht Supplies, Nautical Accessories, Parts, Marine Electronics, Garmin, Humminbird, Lowrance, Jensen, Jbl __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related Last edited by newguy18 : 14th November 2007 at 02:52 PM.