Dr Storricks new tree devices

jim1nz

Dr Storrick, i have just been to your website and its hard to believe its you because your not a mortal like us are you? Absolute full credit to your achievements!

Ok if we are going to get into this, then i think we as arborists need to identify what we actually want, not even Dr Storrick can read our minds ay TM

Here are a few simple straight foward things i want out of a piece of equipment that hasn't been invented yet;

- A smooth and controllable friction device, a device that allows you to descend quickly, tend slack reasonably easily and apply friction smoothly also. = A perfect world

- A device that can be used in a DRT system or a SRT system, is it possible? One or the other would be ok though, are we concentrating on SRT?...

- Something thats not too bulky and heavy, for example the unicender is too bulky but the lockjack is about right.

- It has to adhere to the arboricultural code of conduct for climbing equipment.

There is a start, who is next...

James

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SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

Eric Frei

Personally, I wouldn't like climbing with some great hunk of alloy ready to bash me in the head/face anytime I step up and over a few limbs (like unicender).

I'd like a device to be compact like the lock jack. Tear drop shaped so it doesn't get stuck in forks or palm butts. Idiot proof so if I let go it grabs.

What makes friction hitches work for us is the fact that we grab the knot and drag it with us along the line. This is fine on DRT but SRT they tend to bite too hard and get stuck ... hence the necessity for mechanical devices.

I want a device that doesn't have anything hanging out of it like the lockjack, no handles, no strings/ropes etc.

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Tree Machine

More, more.....

So could we transfer those thoughts to a new thread?

Dr Storrick's New Tree Device


My sentiments exactly. Dr Gary is a God-like figure for all students of aerial discipline, a shining beacon of otherworldly knowledge, a head honcho.

I would expect Dr Storrick to be 3 meters tall and surrounded by a glowing aura. Standing in front of his collection would be like reaching Mecca.

George Hayduke

From the pics that I've seen of the Uni it can be mounted on an adjustable lanyard and kept away from your pearly whites. To be able to ascend and descend without changing gear sounds like a small tradeoff for a bit of bulk.

So some people quack about the price. The LJ is spendy and has expensive wear parts. The Uni can be rebuilt pretty cheap it seems. The cost of some of the performance harnesse, Treeflex, Treemotion, Butterfly has been creeping up and the sales seem to be going up too. Cost doesn't seem to be an issue but performance is.

gdstorrick

This is getting silly. I'm not god-like, we don't need to name anything after me (it isn't my design concept we're working on), I'm only 1.93 meters tall, and sexy women run away from my aura . You are right about standing in front of the collection, though: heaven for a gear geek.

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Jim had the right idea, decide what the requirements are first! I wish I could get that point across to the engineers that I work with. Since I'm not Tarzan, perhaps I should ask some questions. What size ropes are we looking at for SRT & DRT (or is it DST? S=string ). Standard arborists topes, I assume (I have a WesSpur catalog here, BTW). I presume we are looking at a combination ascender/descender - that is something that cavers do not generally need, but I imagine you-all do. I assume you want to drag the device along with you as you walk out a limb. Will you be expecting it to catch you if you fall? Both ways? Do you expect to work it with leather gloves on? I assume you work in the rain, what about snow & ice (brrrr)?

What do you like and dislike about the devices that are out there? What safety regulations must a device adhere to (us cavers don't need no stinking regulations )

That's a start.....

----> Gary

PS: I have a lockjack and a lockjack sport, but no directions for their use. Can someone mail me a xerox copy (609 Penn Drive, Trafford, PA 15085)?

George Hayduke

For all of the info on ART tools look here:

http://www.climb-art.com/

This is another source:

http://www.freeworker.de/

gdstorrick

Thanks, George. I had downloaded the manual from the first site (but forgot to print it!!!). I hadn't seen the second site.

----> Gary

Tree Machine

I like to thank, in advance, all those who contribute to this thread, as well as all the readers watching this unfold.

Rumor has it that there are nearly 14 tree climbers, at this time, worldwide who give a hoot about this new device.



A device is also known as a 'piece', though 'device' tends to carry a tone of complexity and 'piece' a tone of simplicity. However, 'piece' and 'device' can and are used interchangably.

Welcome to piece-based climbing. Give piece a chance, is what I say.

Hardware, mechanical devices. These are other terms, though when you say 'mechanical devices', one immediately thinks 'complicated'.


All these terms can describe even the simplest of friction control devices.

And as long as we're on it, let me share with you what must be considered the simplest of all mechanical devices. Are you ready?

Tree Machine

Pretty simple for a 'mechanical device', dont' ya think?

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Tree Machine

This is how you apply the device to the rope:

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Sean Freeman

nice one TM didn't think you could get simpler than the belay/stitch plate but you've manage it with the belay link...better patent that baby mate

Tree Machine

Now, this piece is hardly worth discussion. Do not use it, OK? But at does fulfull the definition ability of a piece of metal creating friction on a rope. For 10 cents or less, you too can descend SRT. Baby's first descender.

Please do not use a chain link for abseiling. There are better options.

Tree Machine

I just wanted to put that out there because people carry the notion that mechanical devices are somehow complicated. They can be, but they don't have to be.

Tree Machine

....look, there it is.....!

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Eric Frei

Arborists use a full 1/2" rope, commonly called 13mm dia, many pieces for rock/caving suit 11mm rope and aren't so nice for 13mm ... but quite a few people use 11mm

Yes, we need work positioning.

Not sure about the both ways, not all friction hitches work both ways, but the device must catch us one way and that is down.

The device must always be within reach, and for people like me who have to snug up against stuff like palms an adjustable tether etc. I sometimes run a real short bridge on my prussic but when ascending a tree have a much longer bridge.

Optional but I never climb with gloves, it's semi tropical here and even in winter you sweat.

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Tree Machine

Yea, thinks for starting that, JimNZ. Keep the requirements coming. Tonight I will compile those needs into a formalized list and add a few remaining requirements. That list will be the foundation of our design.


This is sort of what tree climbers are used to, with a friction hitch system. Breaking through that mindset and having us look at a new piece without ANY EMOTIONAL BAGGAGE attached to friction hitches is gonna be the hard part.

No one is being asked to change or convert over. We're just looking at new options, so I urge that we stay true to our requirements list and not ask the device to become a mechanical substitute for a hitch.

A mechanical setup can do exactly as a hitch system does, and I think a new device should, at a minimum, give you what the hitch system does in function and ability, but it needs to go way beyond. Wait til you see the completed requirements list, you'll understand.

We will need to pack a lot of ability into one single piece to have something worth something. But, we have a unique pool of talent at treeworld. I believe we can do this.

Tree Machine

Treeseer is a classic old-school ropeman, a slick rigger, but the actual climbing system is as conventional DdRT as it gets.

But as with many contrasting beauties in life, Treeseer is out on the cutting edge of arboriculture whose plethouran of expertise is simply beyond my comprehension.

I would like Guy Meuller to be the official test Guinea Peeg (as well as myself and Dr. Gary). The first three makes of the device go to the three of us. Peeg is our 'control'.

You OK with being thrust into the forefront of new-school technique, Guy?



Helllooooooo....




Click, click,... click

We summon thee. Cometh thee forward. Speaketh of thine piece.

gdstorrick

Yes there are, but there are also far worse. The intent of the chain link was for belaying, not rappeling. Many people use a device designed for one purpose in the other role. I don't think that is a good idea, at least not for beginners. Of course, now that climbing has degenerated to always having a bolt at one's navel, the risks are lower...

----> Gary

gdstorrick

I knew that I was asking an odd question. Here's the background: Expedition mountianeers sometimes fix ropes in exposed places, then run an ascender along the rope to catch them if they should slip. What about on a traverse, where I slip and one anchor pulls out (easily done if the anchor is in snow). Then the "other" anchor is "up," by definition. That means that the safety ascender should be bi-directional. A few are, most are not.

-----> Gary

Eric Frei

Both ways then is not mandatory, should lighten up the design.

DRT: The conventional prussic squeezes the rope. To move we grab the prussic and drag it along. In the case of say a Blakes hitch we manipulate the "bar" to increase or decrease friction on the main climbing line allowing us to drag it along easier.

I prefer the Blakes as it's a big fat chunky hitch and my thumb can manipulate the bar. If we get say a 8mm 3 wrap prussic I find that small to grab and often burn my fingers.

Now on SRT hitches just bind, so the SRT guys are using all sorts of devices.

I tell you, if there was a device about the size of a mobile phone that was simple and you could just grab the bugger and pull it along it would be great. If you could put a micro pulley below to have it advance when the tail of the rope was pulled that would be great.

Think not of cams or the rope going thru some rollers but the device squeezing the main line, like a drill chuck style of clamping ... that's what a prussic does. Maybe split cones inside activated by tapered wall of device. Opposite at bottom so if force exerted upwards makes the cones separate and device easily slides up the line, pull down it clamps, grab the device to pull it along.

I just put a diagram to get the brain flowing creatively.

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Tree Machine

That's it, Ekka. Your device shows pure rope-on-metal friction. Innovative approach.Size of a phone, that goes on the requirements list. The rest of the phrase spells a 2:1 system. 2:1 should be optional, but 1:1 primary. The device needs to extoll the virtues of 1:1

jim1nz

Yea we defiantly cant change over bits and pieces when one needs to go up or down on the system. As Ekkas says the system defiantly does not need to be directional.

With regard to the safety requirements for arboricultural equipment, do we really need to get carried away with that at this stage? Get a concept underway and Dr Gary will be able to calculate the braking strengths etc if required.

TM, whats with the chain link thought explain... Yea its a form of friction but how does it fit in with the product being discussed?

Ekka thats a great start, we need to work on getting some design development pictures together.

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SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

Tree Machine

Introducing friction control from the simplest possible means. Getting across that devices don't need to be complex and complicated. Start simple, understand the basic principle, work up from there.

Prelude. That's really all.

gdstorrick

The underlying picture is Copyrighted ?2007 by Gary D. Storrick. I give permission to use photos and text from my site in this thread, but ask that you include the source and my copyright information. This isn't to be hard on anyone here, it is to preserve my rights to keep people elsewhere from selling copies of my site. Thanks! ----> Gary

gdstorrick

I looked at your diagram and thought of the way the Alptech ABS works. It is a small simple bi-directional device that avoids cams, etc., and doesn't shred ropes like a Tibloc does. I'm not claiming that it is a solution, I'm saying that it gives another operating mechanism to consider...

Photo ?2007, Gary D. Storrick.

-----> Gary

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Eric Frei

Wierd device, I'd have to see that in action.

Once it's locked on ya in SRT can you drag it along with you or do you have to get your weight off it? ... Like a Gibbs or Shunt, they lock efficiently but you cant drag it along with you.

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Tree Machine

I might as well get the SRT ascent thing out front and in the open.

This is how to use a tibloc without having it shred the rope; use it as a backup.

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Tree Machine

Roger that and thank you.




Dr Gary, how many devices did you say you have in your collection?

Eric Frei

Can you drag that along with you as you work TM?

Hey, some interesting research I discovered. Many devices like this aren't rated the 22kn ANSI std for tree climbing. Interesting. And ropes are supposed to be 23kn.

Now here's a thought, a prussic will slide at around 800kg upwards, so although the prussic loop itself is perhaps rated 25kn it's not the actual holding strength in it's application.

So I noticed some of these devices slip at 3kn+ and the Tibloc is only 12kn breaking strength.

What say you about this TM? No can climb in comps etc? what's the deal with these devices and comps and ANSI???

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gdstorrick

As of yesterday, I have 994 that I've given numbers to and included in my database. Of these, 34 are duplicates. This is changing rapidly as I prepare it for display. Half an hour ago I finished building a double Allp but I haven't entered it yet. I have twelve items in transit from the UK, ten more from the Ukraine, three from Japan, and two from the US. When these all arrive, I'll be comfortably over 1000. This count does not include knots, carabiner rappel methods, nor other climbing gear like chocks, cams, ice screws, pickets, deadmen, etc.

...and if I had to climb a rope riight now, I wouldn't have anything to use....


-----> Gary (just Gary).