Dr Storricks new tree devices

Ekka · 1st September 2007, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

So why doesn't any one use a gibbs ascender or the like in stead of a friction hitch?I'm sure that it would save money and rope in the long run?

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

I wasn't planning on testing it personally I was just wondering if any one uses or tried it.My friend Jerry used to do it.

Trouble with learning "old school" is picking up bad habits, perhaps from things that sort of worked but nothing else was around or available.

A Gibbs ascender cannot be abseiled upon safely. It relies purely on locking off the rope with downward pressure and has no gentle semi open positioning for smooth descent like a Gri Gri.

I also know people who reckon they climb on a shunt, same problem. If you open the jaw or relieve pressure on the jaw you go down at a rate of knots.

You may use a Gibbs on your lanyard, same problem. If you are leaning back and release the jaw you fall backwards ... hence having to either hold the rope or the tree/branch etc.

Both recreational rock climbing tutors or qualified arborists/rescue personel are trained with knowledge and the short comings of these devices, I urge you broaden your spectrum of what is out there and who delivers the knowledge.

newguy18 · 2nd September 2007, 05:13 AM

I have a pretty good idea of the differnt ascenders that are out there I just can't see my self trusting them.I reguarly get catalogs from sherill,wesspur,bailey's,and some others that always have some new device.

Quintrex · 2nd September 2007, 06:25 PM

I use the SRT ascender, similar to Dumar and CMI, use figure 8 for descent and prussik loop for branch walking and moving around the tree.
Use SRT with foot ascender for long climbs.

Tree Machine · 2nd September 2007, 07:10 PM

There's a lot of devices that can be used, but I will suggest, rather than explore the vast world of mechanical devices, that we focus our efforts.

It's been suggested numerous places in this thread that ascenders be used for the ascent. For the most versatility, the dual-handled dual ascenders by Kong are favored. There is a further reason for this:

Of the three rope techniques (dynamic doubled, static doubled and SRT), static doubled is the least-used, by far. However, I find it, by far, the fastest, simplest, most efficient and easiest to learn method of accessing a crown; both ends of the rope are on the ground, clip the Kong Duals onto the doubled rope, set your backup safety and go. Footlocking a doubled, parallel line is easier than a single line, there is very little friction working against you and it is a 1:1 ascent.

Once up there, clip a work positioning device onto the doubled lines and go to work. 1:1 descent, all the friction coming from the device, your entire weight divided equally onto each of the two lines. There is no motion at the tie-in point. Very nice for pines. The rope doesn't travel over the crotch or limb, so it doesn't get covered in pitch, except for maybe the small zone that drapes over at the top.

Mastering this 1:1 static doubled rope technique automatically teaches and allows you to use the other two methods, the traditional 2:1 dynamic doubled rope technique, and single rope technique.

If you are using a device that allows 1:1 doubled rope technique and the device handles both sides of the rope independently, if you lock off one side and let the other side run, you are now in 2:1 dynamic doubled rope technique except instead of the one end of the rope anchored to you, the rope is anchored midline.

If you anchor one end of the line to the base of the tree, or up at the tie-in point, and use only one side of the device, there you have SRT.

The point is, we're trying to expand outward here, not do something we're already doing, whether it's different or even improved. We're opening up into an arena where what you've BEEN doing becomes an option. You're not leaving your old methods behind, you're just giving yourself new options, all three rope techniques and the ability to segue in and out of any or all of them at will.

Tree Machine · 2nd September 2007, 07:23 PM

The figure 8 has been around a long time, can be used for all three rope techniques and if it has ears, you have soft-lock options.

The figure 8, configured in the traditional way, twists the rope below you. Normally this is just an annoyance, but there are safety issues. I would never, ever recommend regular use of a figure 8. Not if there are better options.

I do think it's important for all tree climbers to use one just to understand friction control through an 8, but for performance climbing an 8 just does not cut it. There are better options already out there, and we will explore a number of them, but our goal is to determine, "What IS the best, all-around work positioning device for tree climbers?" if it does not exist, we will create it. If we accidentally learn a lot about devices that have already been conceived, well, all right then. If we learn a lot about friction itself, and the precision control of friction, I think we're better for it.

Tree Machine · 2nd September 2007, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree Machine

It's been suggested numerous places in this thread that ascenders be used for the ascent. For the most versatility, the dual-handled dual ascenders by Kong are favored. There is a further reason for this:

Another reason is that there are no other dual-handled, dual ascenders out there, that I know of.

The duals will allow you 1:1 doubled rope ascent, 2:1 doubled rope ascent and single rope ascent.

This is pretty much all one can hope for in an ascender. All the options are there, though I would highly encourage you to leave 2:1 ascent methods in your past. The friction hitch requires you to do 2:1 ascent. Ascenders allow you to break free of that

I wish there were a dual-handled, dual ascender, or even a single handled dual ascender that would allow safe, smooth, predictable descent, but nothing I've ever seen even comes close to that. Therefore, since all three ascent methods are covered with this one affordable ascender, if we pair it with a device that can descend all three rope methods, you have a complete set of options. The key is a device that covers all the listed requirements we came up with in the first few pages of this thread.

newguy18 · 2nd September 2007, 08:30 PM

So couldn't we try daisy chaing a few figure eights together?

Tree Machine · 3rd September 2007, 05:59 AM

Quick-on, quick off is one of our requirements.

Simplicity and intuitive ease of use is another.

I know you are joking, Newguy. If by chance there is some seriousness in that, you would link caribiners together, not figure 8's. I do not recommend this, but here are some examples in the collection Dr. Storrick has assembled 'specially for us..

gdstorrick · 4th September 2007, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

So why doesn't any one use a gibbs ascender or the like in stead of a friction hitch?I'm sure that it would save money and rope in the long run?

For ascending, it works (Duh, it is an ascender), but if you unload it, the Gibbs (and some others) will move. Friction hitches stay put, as do some other types of ascenders too numerous to list.

----> Gary

Ekka · 4th September 2007, 03:34 AM

OK

This is the fact part. Lets say a 3 wrap (6 coil) prussik works nice on DRT but on SRT it bites too hard and you get stuck.

What would you do, to that prussik to lessen the grip and make it respond more like the DRT system?

1/ Increase dia of rope of prussik

2/ More wraps (coils)

3/ Less wraps (coils)

4/ Different fiber rope

5/ ? Dont know but you might

Maybe all we need to do is find a better prussik

gdstorrick · 4th September 2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

OK

This is the fact part. Lets say a 3 wrap (6 coil) prussik works nice on DRT but on SRT it bites too hard and you get stuck.

What would you do <SNIP>?

Maybe all we need to do is find a better prussik

LOL

, cavers had this problem in their environment in the 50s & 60s (and climbers before that), so that is exactly what they did. The first step was to the semimechanicals (here are a few) and then we stopped being cheap and "everyone" moved to mechanical ascenders.

----> Gary

newguy18 · 4th September 2007, 06:51 PM

Hey are you saying I'm cheap?Why thankya.

Tree Machine · 5th September 2007, 04:49 AM

In tree care, we do this for money. The gear we buy better helps us earn our living.

Why on earth would you be cheap in choosing otherwise inexpensive personal gear that better allows you to earn your income?

Now cavers, they're a different bunch. Caving is a hobby and a passion, but generally doesn't earn one a living. Usually, like most hopbbies and sports, quite the opposite. I understand cavers keeping the expenses low, but still, they choose high-end gear because their lives are hanging on it.

Treeguys are married to the friction hitch. I understand this, and I understand why. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it's safe, but is it? I ask this question because I regularly read Arboricultural Injuries and Fatalities. Tree climbers fall out of trees, and if we're all climbing on friction hitches, there's a chance that the friction hitch is the cause, whether be it from excessive wear, poorly tuned, wrong diameter, wet rope or who knows.

In the last 5 or 6 years on these arborist forums, there have been hundreds of threads on friction hitches. Even after the learning curve, many guys can still not get the footlocking down properly and try to improve their performance with, what? A foot ascender. Even with this modest improvement, the ascent is still 2:1, friction in two places and unavoidable slack in the system.

Even the advanced hitches, still 2:1, but yes, they perform better. You have added a tress cord, micropulley, dog snap and caribiner. Now you're at a cost at or beyond a set of dual ascenders, more complication, more parts, a cord that wears, performs differently on different diameter rope, wet ropes, diameters of limbs and so on.

Just a tress cord alone can cost more than a simple device. I just bought an ATC XP for the next few upcoming posts at $22.50 . Here's an upper-end tress cord, without the micropulley, leash or biner:

gdstorrick · 5th September 2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

Hey are you saying I'm cheap?Why thankya.

No, of course not, you weren't one of "we cavers" in the 1960s, as far as I know. Lots of cavers griped about having to pay $15 for a pair of Jumars or $7 for Gibbs. Big money!

----> Gary

gdstorrick · 5th September 2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree Machine

In tree care, we do this for money. The gear we buy better helps us earn our living.

Why on earth would you be cheap in choosing otherwise inexpensive personal gear that better allows you to earn your income?

Now cavers, they're a different bunch. Caving is a hobby and a passion, but generally doesn't earn one a living. Usually, like most hopbbies and sports, quite the opposite. I understand cavers keeping the expenses low, but still, they choose high-end gear because their lives are hanging on it. <SNIP>

And the point, of course, is that cavers eventualy realized that for our use, "cheap" was just about the only reason to stay with knots or semimechanicals. Well, maybe not, you might choose them just to be different, but for many of us, ropes are just a means to an end (explore cave), and not the end itself (drop pits) - except in TAG,... - and there ascenders make it easier to drop more pits.

So yes, you CAN make a prusik better without going all the way to a mechanical ascender, but most of us no longer stop half way.

And yse, our needs are different, the double handled double rope ascender idea is just about as useless an idea as ever came along, for caving - or climbing - but the tree world is different and you'nzs seem to prefer them.

I think that this is a lot of the reason that Jim could spend so many hours staring at my collection and not find what he was after. I'm not surprised, my needs are different, and most gear is made for other reasons. It's kind of fun to hang out here, though...

----> Gary

2nd September 2007, 05:13 AM	#202 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,796	Re: Dr Storricks new tree devices I have a pretty good idea of the differnt ascenders that are out there I just can't see my self trusting them.I reguarly get catalogs from sherill,wesspur,bailey's,and some others that always have some new device. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

2nd September 2007, 06:25 PM	#203 (permalink)
Quintrex Mature tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 486	Re: Dr Storricks new tree devices I use the SRT ascender, similar to Dumar and CMI, use figure 8 for descent and prussik loop for branch walking and moving around the tree. Use SRT with foot ascender for long climbs.

2nd September 2007, 07:10 PM	#204 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	Three rope techniques There's a lot of devices that can be used, but I will suggest, rather than explore the vast world of mechanical devices, that we focus our efforts. It's been suggested numerous places in this thread that ascenders be used for the ascent. For the most versatility, the dual-handled dual ascenders by Kong are favored. There is a further reason for this: Of the three rope techniques (dynamic doubled, static doubled and SRT), static doubled is the least-used, by far. However, I find it, by far, the fastest, simplest, most efficient and easiest to learn method of accessing a crown; both ends of the rope are on the ground, clip the Kong Duals onto the doubled rope, set your backup safety and go. Footlocking a doubled, parallel line is easier than a single line, there is very little friction working against you and it is a 1:1 ascent. Once up there, clip a work positioning device onto the doubled lines and go to work. 1:1 descent, all the friction coming from the device, your entire weight divided equally onto each of the two lines. There is no motion at the tie-in point. Very nice for pines. The rope doesn't travel over the crotch or limb, so it doesn't get covered in pitch, except for maybe the small zone that drapes over at the top. Mastering this 1:1 static doubled rope technique automatically teaches and allows you to use the other two methods, the traditional 2:1 dynamic doubled rope technique, and single rope technique. If you are using a device that allows 1:1 doubled rope technique and the device handles both sides of the rope independently, if you lock off one side and let the other side run, you are now in 2:1 dynamic doubled rope technique except instead of the one end of the rope anchored to you, the rope is anchored midline. If you anchor one end of the line to the base of the tree, or up at the tie-in point, and use only one side of the device, there you have SRT. The point is, we're trying to expand outward here, not do something we're already doing, whether it's different or even improved. We're opening up into an arena where what you've BEEN doing becomes an option. You're not leaving your old methods behind, you're just giving yourself new options, all three rope techniques and the ability to segue in and out of any or all of them at will.

2nd September 2007, 07:23 PM	#205 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	The figure 8 The figure 8 has been around a long time, can be used for all three rope techniques and if it has ears, you have soft-lock options. The figure 8, configured in the traditional way, twists the rope below you. Normally this is just an annoyance, but there are safety issues. I would never, ever recommend regular use of a figure 8. Not if there are better options. I do think it's important for all tree climbers to use one just to understand friction control through an 8, but for performance climbing an 8 just does not cut it. There are better options already out there, and we will explore a number of them, but our goal is to determine, "What IS the best, all-around work positioning device for tree climbers?" if it does not exist, we will create it. If we accidentally learn a lot about devices that have already been conceived, well, all right then. If we learn a lot about friction itself, and the precision control of friction, I think we're better for it.

2nd September 2007, 08:30 PM	#207 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,796	Re: Dr Storricks new tree devices So couldn't we try daisy chaing a few figure eights together? __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

3rd September 2007, 05:59 AM	#208 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	Re: Dr Storricks new tree devices Quick-on, quick off is one of our requirements. Simplicity and intuitive ease of use is another. I know you are joking, Newguy. If by chance there is some seriousness in that, you would link caribiners together, not figure 8's. *I do not recommend this*, but here are some examples in the collection Dr. Storrick has assembled 'specially for us..

4th September 2007, 03:34 AM	#210 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,547	Re: Dr Storricks new tree devices OK This is the fact part. Lets say a 3 wrap (6 coil) prussik works nice on DRT but on SRT it bites too hard and you get stuck. What would you do, to that prussik to lessen the grip and make it respond more like the DRT system? 1/ Increase dia of rope of prussik 2/ More wraps (coils) 3/ Less wraps (coils) 4/ Different fiber rope 5/ ? Dont know but you might Maybe all we need to do is find a better prussik __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

4th September 2007, 06:51 PM	#212 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,796	Re: Dr Storricks new tree devices Hey are you saying I'm cheap?Why thankya. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related