Dr Storricks new tree devices

TreeCo · 13th August 2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdstorrick

.

Just out of curiosity, is your reluctance limited to metal objects only, or do you braid you own rope?

----> Gary

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

I make my own splices.To tell the truth I get most of my rope from Lowes.

If you are splicing rope you should have understood the question.

newguy18 · 14th August 2007, 03:09 PM

Oh he meant make my own rope no I don't but I trust rope more than a mechanical belaying device.

Tree Machine · 18th August 2007, 10:18 AM

Some of the mechanical belay devices upcoming simply hold the bight of rope in a ' U ' formation so the rope can pass over whatever is connecting you to the rope. In my case, I prefer a 50 Kn steel triple-locking caribiner. It wears much longer than friction hitches and is more predictable with wet rope.

SO, it's the steel caribiner that is taking on the forces and the majority of the friction, the belay device just guarantees proper positioning of the rope and adds a bit more friction. If properly designed, the friction can be adjusted precisely and incrementally with regards to the climber's style, weight and rope type and diameter. Also what lacks on these simple devices is the lockoff ability, hard and soft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George

What is "2:1 doubled rope descent" ?

It's what you're using if climbing on a hitch system. We went over it in detail in past pages. But summarizing, one end of the rope is anchored to you, goes up and over your tie-in point, through friction control and to the ground. The movement of the rope at the tie-in point acts as a 'pully', creating two legs of a mechanical advantage system. You must pass twice as much length of rope through friction control as the distance you descent.

This is in contrast to 1:1 doubled rope descent and 1:1 single rope descent.

Let me catch up with you guys in another day or so. We're still in Mexico, sitting on the bullseye for Cat. 4 Hurricane Dean which will arrive the day after tomorrow (We're a short distance south of Cancun and Cozumel). Our place is under compulsory evacuation, so we must fly out this evening. Hasta luego. Jeem.

newguy18 · 19th August 2007, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree Machine

Some of the mechanical belay devices upcoming simply hold the bight of rope in a ' U ' formation so the rope can pass over whatever is connecting you to the rope. In my case, I prefer a 50 Kn steel triple-locking caribiner. It wears much longer than friction hitches and is more predictable with wet rope.

SO, it's the steel caribiner that is taking on the forces and the majority of the friction, the belay device just guarantees proper positioning of the rope and adds a bit more friction. If properly designed, the friction can be adjusted precisely and incrementally with regards to the climber's style, weight and rope type and diameter. Also what lacks on these simple devices is the lockoff ability, hard and soft.

It's what you're using if climbing on a hitch system. We went over it in detail in past pages. But summarizing, one end of the rope is anchored to you, goes up and over your tie-in point, through friction control and to the ground. The movement of the rope at the tie-in point acts as a 'pully', creating two legs of a mechanical advantage system. You must pass twice as much length of rope through friction control as the distance you descent.

This is in contrast to 1:1 doubled rope descent and 1:1 single rope descent.

Let me catch up with you guys in another day or so. We're still in Mexico, sitting on the bullseye for Cat. 4 Hurricane Dean which will arrive the day after tomorrow (We're a short distance south of Cancun and Cozumel). Our place is under compulsory evacuation, so we must fly out this evening. Hasta luego. Jeem.

Crikey I hope you guys don't get hurtin the storm or anyone for that matter.Be careful.May the good Lord protect you.

Ekka · 20th August 2007, 05:24 AM

It's the season for that again isn't it?

Hurricanes, hope you got a camera.

No hanging round tin sheds mate, be careful.

newguy18 · 20th August 2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

It's the season for that again isn't it?

Hurricanes, hope you got a camera.

No hanging round tin sheds mate, be careful.

Don't remind me of that I tried to catch flying tin in a hurricane 2 years ago man did that hurt.

Tree Machine · 20th August 2007, 07:19 PM

Thanks guys,

I'm back in Indianapolis, almost feeling guilty that I could so conveniently leave, and the locals can not. Here's a view of the storm as of 10 pm, Monday Aug 20. It tagged Jamaica good and hard last night. They called it a 'glancing blow', which means the eye didn't pass directly over. However, it's the winds coming over the top-front of the storm that are the worst. Jamaica got that stuff. That upper right-hook storm wind velocity, plus the velocity of the storm's travel speed = the worst winds. The area right in front of the eye is where you get the major storm surge. I put a dot where we were staying. Not meaning to derail the thread, but if you all could put in a little prayer for the people and wildlife and trees of the region, they could use all the help they can get.

They talk about Cancun and Cozumel missing a direct hit, but honestly, that entire coast is developed for tourists. The locals live inland a short distance in Pueblos and their housing is, lets say, not up to hurricane standards. It's gonna be a God-awful day for everyone there tomorrow.

One highlight while I was there, I saw was a clutch of baby sea turtles hatch and emerge from their nest on the beach and hustle it out to sea. There were 136 of the little buggers. There were dozens of other turtle nests, protected by caring humans, perimetered by stones to mark the location, with a sign denoting the lay date. It is hatching season right now. For the eggs still just beneath the surface of the sand, Mother Nature is sending them a most cruel force.

They say the storm may strengthen to category 5 tonight. The water out there is really warm.

George Hayduke · 24th August 2007, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

I'm sorry but I have a hard time trusting mechanical devices that I don't make myself.

You sure must lead a sedentary life then...unless you build airplanes, cars, bicycles===for that matter, do you cobble your own shoes and weave your own rope?

Troll, troll, troll your boat...

newguy18 · 24th August 2007, 06:19 PM

Dude I'm not a troll I just don't trust mechanical belaying devices that's just my opinion.

Tree Machine · 24th August 2007, 09:22 PM

Troll or no troll, newguy brings forward a most valuable and important element to this thread, and I wish to totally embrace it.

Everybody has had really good and interesting input, and I thank you all, but newguy he brings to this design table that critical personal inner belief that we all have, even if we don't care to admit it. It grows on us with time and the older we get, the more we are affected by it. It deepens. What newguy brings us, so very clearly, is a trait, an almost universal way of being to which none of us are immune. If we resist or deny this facet of ourselves, time will have it's way, and we all eventually succumb.

Tree Machine · 24th August 2007, 09:30 PM

Newguy has somehow figured out how absolutely necessary this point in the overall big picture is. For this, I would like to acknowledge newguy18 as the most valuable contributor to this thread.

Thank you newguy.

Tree Machine · 24th August 2007, 09:32 PM

Back to designing a serious work positioning device.

Tree Machine · 24th August 2007, 09:40 PM

Of the most basic devices, as we pointed out in earlier pages, are the belay tubes, or plates. The simplest, most boiled-down mechanical device that there is, really, is the link of chain, or the friction saver ring.

Just to exhaust the simplicity end of it, and since newguy was going to give the chain link a try, here is a picture I took. I actually did a climb with this in 2:1 Ddrt mode and SRT. Here is a picture of it in SRT mode:

Tree Machine · 24th August 2007, 09:48 PM

And here it is in 2:1. The rope setup is, the eye termination anchored on the biner, rope up and over the tie-in point, down through the stainless steel quicklink and to the ground.

Tree Machine · 24th August 2007, 10:10 PM

Note the little biner coming off the Delta. See how it holds the rope right there and promises you a degree of hands-free control on the rope? This is called 'soft-lock'.

With the friction of the rope passing over the crotch, the oval quicklink didn't need to apply much in the way of friction to carry ~90% of my weight. When that little Black Diamond mini aluminum Hotwire (The micron) was applied, closer to 100% of my weight was supported. In this mode the friction you apply with your hand is forefinger, middlefinger, thumb. I can fall, and without the use of my hands, will be supported, possibly descend slowly, but I can control descent now with my feet, the rope pinched between my knees or even the rope sandwiched between the tree and thigh.

Descent with this simple quiicklink device can be, for all practical purposes, hands-free in 2:1 mode, or hands-optional. I am not suggesting any of you do this, unless you want to simply confirm that what I am saying is true. What I am saying is, this is possible with just this single oval piece of metal.

If you want to descend more speedily, with the exact configuration as is shown in the most previous picture, the 2:1 set up around the red biner, you would have to coax the rope along by assisting it. Light taps with the tips of your fingers about at stomach/chest level.

Tree Machine · 24th August 2007, 10:14 PM

That rope is the green, 11.5 mm New England (dragon)Fly.

I think any 13mm would work as well.

14th August 2007, 03:09 PM	#152 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,833	Oh he meant make my own rope no I don't but I trust rope more than a mechanical belaying device. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

20th August 2007, 05:24 AM	#155 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,701	It's the season for that again isn't it? Hurricanes, hope you got a camera. No hanging round tin sheds mate, be careful. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

24th August 2007, 06:19 PM	#159 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,833	Dude I'm not a troll I just don't trust mechanical belaying devices that's just my opinion. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

24th August 2007, 09:22 PM	#160 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	Troll or no troll, newguy brings forward a most valuable and important element to this thread, and I wish to totally embrace it. Everybody has had really good and interesting input, and I thank you all, but newguy he brings to this design table that critical personal inner belief that we all have, even if we don't care to admit it. It grows on us with time and the older we get, the more we are affected by it. It deepens. What newguy brings us, so very clearly, is a trait, an almost universal way of being to which none of us are immune. If we resist or deny this facet of ourselves, time will have it's way, and we all eventually succumb.

24th August 2007, 09:30 PM	#161 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	Newguy has somehow figured out how absolutely necessary this point in the overall big picture is. For this, I would like to acknowledge newguy18 as the most valuable contributor to this thread. Thank you newguy.

24th August 2007, 09:32 PM	#162 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	Back to designing a serious work positioning device.

24th August 2007, 10:10 PM	#165 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	Note the little biner coming off the Delta. See how it holds the rope right there and promises you a degree of hands-free control on the rope? This is called 'soft-lock'. With the friction of the rope passing over the crotch, the oval quicklink didn't need to apply much in the way of friction to carry ~90% of my weight. When that little Black Diamond mini aluminum Hotwire (The micron) was applied, closer to 100% of my weight was supported. In this mode the friction you apply with your hand is forefinger, middlefinger, thumb. I can fall, and without the use of my hands, will be supported, possibly descend slowly, but I can control descent now with my feet, the rope pinched between my knees or even the rope sandwiched between the tree and thigh. Descent with this simple quiicklink device can be, for all practical purposes, hands-free in 2:1 mode, or hands-optional. I am not suggesting any of you do this, unless you want to simply confirm that what I am saying is true. What I am saying is, this is possible with just this single oval piece of metal. If you want to descend more speedily, with the exact configuration as is shown in the most previous picture, the 2:1 set up around the red biner, you would have to coax the rope along by assisting it. Light taps with the tips of your fingers about at stomach/chest level.

24th August 2007, 10:14 PM	#166 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	That rope is the green, 11.5 mm New England (dragon)Fly. I think any 13mm would work as well.