Dr Storricks new tree devices

TreeCo · 28th June 2007, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree Machine

Hey TreeCo, have your plumbing supplies whispered any secrets?

Nothing yet but I will keep you posted.

gdstorrick · 4th July 2007, 01:11 PM

Well folks, there have been a lot of good discussions in the past few weeks. There are so many differences betwee what you-all do and what I do that I wonder if anything that I know or post on my web site has any relevance at all. Well, of course it has some, but it is really clear that we have a lot of differences in our needs, and that gives me a lot to think about.

Sorry not to be around the last few weeks, I've done as much business travelling in the past five weeks as i normally do in a year, and right now I'm madly trying to finish my collection displays for the caving convention: I have 16 days to finish getting ready, but I think that I'll make it OK. Meanwhile, I'm still digesting everything you-all write.

Thanks,

----> gary

Ekka · 5th July 2007, 12:55 AM

How do you go taking your display on a plane?

Sure a lot of gear to haul around but certainly a huge collection.

That lockjack device seems to appeal to me, but it's not SRT.

jim1nz · 5th July 2007, 01:04 PM

Lockjack is not even smooth DRT let a loan SRT, must just be me.

Tree Machine · 6th July 2007, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdstorrick

Well folks, there have been a lot of good discussions in the past few weeks. There are so many differences betwee what you-all do and what I do that I wonder if anything that I know or post on my web site has any relevance at all.

More than you know. Your collections and their complete descriptions are the basic foundation for us to be able to do this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Gary

Well, of course it has some, but it is really clear that we have a lot of differences in our needs, and that gives me a lot to think about.

We appreciate you hanging in here with us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Storrick

Sorry not to be around the last few weeks, I've done as much business travelling in the past five weeks as i normally do in a year, and right now I'm madly trying to finish my collection displays for the caving convention: I have 16 days to finish getting ready, but I think that I'll make it OK. Meanwhile, I'm still digesting everything you-all write.

I hjave 16 days to prepare to smash a world record. I've been working on my vertical endurance.

Hey, Gary, I'm cleared to come to the NSS convenetion. Elizabeth has to go visit her Mom for that week, we have some friends staying at the house, I'm at Marengo all week. Since Elizabeth is not coming, my schedule opens up a lot. I mean, a lot.

I have Elliot as the first-class photographer, and he and I will write and submit the article on you to the NSS Journal.

But back to the design of this piece. I have been climbing on some interesting configurations, and have some originald conjured up in my head. Dr Gary, Do I have permission to copy and dissect and digitally paste together different parts from different devices from your boards?

Tree Machine · 6th July 2007, 08:51 PM

I'd like to add another requirement to our wish list.

The major de la major drawback to a good device is the fact that you can lose it. I would like for us to incorporate into the design, the option to carry it in the front of the climber's saddle, permanantly. If the device is always use during any climb, why have it go anywhere other than where it is used; up front. Front hardware. Frontware.

Just the option. On a sliding D system, sliding frontware. Floating frontware. Does the thing really need to be removed?
(Depends on the design.)

Tree Machine · 8th July 2007, 08:21 PM

Oh, and an unstated, though almost too obvious to even list requirement,

The only way a piece is to have any efficiency at all,

eliminating the repetitive
redundant
again and again and again
task of fashioning any rope or line into a knot or hitch
and having to later on un-do them

The way of the future

the liberating joy and freedom of

NO KNOTS

I think we're ready to design.

TreeCo · 9th July 2007, 07:11 AM

Thanks for keeping the ball rolling in this thread TM. My wife and I were correcting a bad lean the top of a red oak developed after a pine top landed in it during an ice storm several years ago. We are tieing it back to other larger trees.

Looking up at our work afterwards I realized just how much of a labor saver total SRT tree work is going to be.

Atached is a system used in the ISA TCC in Nashville in 2005 by Mark Chisholm.

Access is SRT but a complete DdRT system hangs off of the SRT line. The SRT line is over a crotch and tied off to a tree on the ground so it can be pulled down afterwards. The block in the photo rachets.

Dan

TreeCo · 9th July 2007, 07:14 AM

This is a very good system and was used by several in the ISA TCC.

juniorgilman · 10th July 2007, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree Machine

IThe major de la major drawback to a good device is the fact that you can lose it. I would like for us to incorporate into the design, the option to carry it in the front of the climber's saddle, permanantly. If the device is always use during any climb, why have it go anywhere other than where it is used; up front. Front hardware. Frontware.

Just the option. On a sliding D system, sliding frontware. Floating frontware. Does the thing really need to be removed?
(Depends on the design.)

I've been following along with this thread a a new climber and I get a little lost sometimes, but one thought I have about a permanent devise is that if it's permanent, then you have to buy the saddle with it already installed. If your going to use it all the time, then just never take it off. Otherwise you will have to make arrangements with saddle company's to have them installed and ready for sale. Sales will only be made when people like both the saddle and the device. When someone likes the devise, but not the saddle, they won't buy it. I know it's not about the money here, we just want an awesome devise, but don't cut out your options at the same time.

TM, I can see where your comment could have been tongue & cheek, and if it was, I'm sorry for overstepping.

Matt

Tree Machine · 12th July 2007, 04:41 AM

Hi Junior. That's a very good point about the permanence of the device on the saddle, and with your excellent observation, I can clear the air on that.

I have a microcender adjuster on the flipline that never comes off. It is permanently installed. Just an example.

The ferrules on my pole pruner poles are permanently installed.

The steering wheel on my truck is permanently installed.

The axel and roller in a pulley is permanently installed.

By saying 'permanently installed' the thought is that the device is always there and is not taken on and off, like a caribiner, or something that connects to a caribiner. The big reason for this is two-fold; 1) it is always there on your saddle. If you put your saddle on, you clearly have the intent to ascend and descend a tree, there is almost no reason why it shouldn't always be there. And
2) You can't lose it, drop it, etc. This is rather important. I have had devices come and devices go. Usually they go becauase I have lost them, or I've been on ascent, rattling around through the brush and something shiny will fall from my hip, into the vine-covered ground below, never to be seen again. Worse yet, gets lost in the sawdust and ends up being bush tucker for the chipper.

This just doesn't have to be the case, that is, if the design incorporates the solution into the design.

The 'permanently installed' feature would simply be a grade 6 threadless shank bolt terminated farside with a nylon lock nut. This bolt would pass through a roller, just bigger than the bolt itself and this part of the device would be on the belly side of the sliding bridge. This would be permanent, though removable with tools.

The other version of 'permanently installed' would be essentially the same as described above, though instead of the bolt, you would have a phat steel rivet, passing through the roller, passing through the far side of the device, then peened by you, the saddle owner, to terminate.

For those climbers with a floating bridge where on some of the more 'mod' saddles, that bridge is constructed of rope. Imagine the device on the frontside of the bridge, conglomerated with a micropulley working the backside.

This is how we create a device that doesn't have to be factory installed. Permanently installed' really means 'not easily removed'.

That was an excellent point to bring up, Junior. In one of our upcoming designs, the core of the design is a functional caribiner. Since the triple lock caribiner has almost become universal for quick attachment and detachment of climbing lines and hardware, and it's almost always up front anyway, to incorporate it into the design of the ('permanently installed') descender, it can ALSO be used to attach to the straps of your ascenders making the device uniquely multifunctional, and to a degree, bidirectional.

I can see ascending up, get to your place, flipline in, set your descent device with ascenders still on, then remove ascenders. With this thought you are never not attached to the climbing line during the few seconds of changeover. This would also allow midline changeovers while hanging in space. Stop, attach friction control, take up all slack, set hard lock. Little body bounce to release the cams on the ascenders, remove hardlock, come back down. There would be no actual need to remove the ascender from the rope until you got back to the ground.

I think we plugged the essentialness of EZ midline changeovers somewhere in the requirements list.

Tree Machine · 12th July 2007, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeCo

Looking up at our work afterwards I realized just how much of a labor saver total SRT tree work is going to be.

The labor savings comes when you can use SRT when it is most advantageous to do so, not necessarily 'total SRT tree work'.

I am in and out of SRT and the 1:1 and 2:1 doubled rope methods all day long, often during the same climb, sometimes because it suits the moment, but often just because I can.

Mastry over all three of these rope techniques, with one single device, is definitely our long-term goal. Being stuck permanently in 2:1 DdRT should be viewed as a 'sentence' of sorts, a mild punishment because our predecessors haven't figured out a simple tree positioning device for us. So, here we are doing something about it. I'm quite excited!

gdstorrick · 15th July 2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

How do you go taking your display on a plane?

I wouldn't even consider trying. Indiana is practically next door to Pittsburgh, so with such a short drive, it is U-Haul time.

----> Gary

gdstorrick · 15th July 2007, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree Machine

Hey, Gary, I'm cleared to come to the NSS convenetion. Elizabeth has to go visit her Mom for that week, we have some friends staying at the house, I'm at Marengo all week. Since Elizabeth is not coming, my schedule opens up a lot. I mean, a lot.

I have Elliot as the first-class ph otographer, and he and I will write and submit the article on you to the NSS Journal.

That is a scary thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree Machine

But back to the design of this piece. I have been climbing on some interesting configurations, and have some originald conjured up in my head. Dr Gary, Do I have permission to copy and dissect and digitally paste together different parts from different devices from your boards?

Of course. Just give me credit for the originals. (FYI: I have to do this for legal reasons. What I do not want is someone taking my site and making a book out of it. To keep a copytight, one has to defend it. Usually, I freely give permission to use small bits to almost anyone who asks).

----> Gary

gdstorrick · 15th July 2007, 04:58 AM

[quote=TreeCo;7148]This is a very good system and was used by several in the ISA TCC.QUOTE]

Now that I have my equipment display almost ready to take to the caving convention next week, I realize that the one gaping hole is that I never finished surfing the web and updating the ascender knots to include all the ideas out there. For example, Franx Bachmann invented many semimechanical knots other than his 1952 Bachmann. I'd like to capture them all, along with all of their various names. It will make a nice project for later this year.

The knot you showed in this picture is another one that I'm "missing." Does it have a name in your trade?

----> Gary

gdstorrick · 15th July 2007, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree Machine

This is how we create a device that doesn't have to be factory installed. Permanently installed' really means 'not easily removed'.

Another definition of "permanently installed" (or "permanently attached") that is conceptually different is "not normally removed." You might attach it to your gear at the start of a day (or a job) and remove it at the end, but not during.

A frog caver does not normally remove her/his chest ascender from the seat maillon between drops, but when (s)he takes the whole system off, it comes apart. During the pit series, it is "permanently attached."

Climbers do not normally untie the rope from their harness between pitches, but do so at the end of the climb. During the climb, it is "permanently attached."

There is probaly an arborist example, but knowing nothing, I won't try to give one.

----> Gary

5th July 2007, 12:55 AM	#78 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,693	How do you go taking your display on a plane? Sure a lot of gear to haul around but certainly a huge collection. That lockjack device seems to appeal to me, but it's not SRT. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

5th July 2007, 01:04 PM	#79 (permalink)
jim1nz Mature tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 296	Lockjack is not even smooth DRT let a loan SRT, must just be me. __________________ SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

15th July 2007, 04:58 AM	#90 (permalink)
gdstorrick Sappling Join Date: May 2007 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 46	Knot [quote=TreeCo;7148]This is a very good system and was used by several in the ISA TCC.QUOTE] Now that I have my equipment display almost ready to take to the caving convention next week, I realize that the one gaping hole is that I never finished surfing the web and updating the ascender knots to include all the ideas out there. For example, Franx Bachmann invented many semimechanical knots other than his 1952 Bachmann. I'd like to capture them all, along with all of their various names. It will make a nice project for later this year. The knot you showed in this picture is another one that I'm "missing." Does it have a name in your trade? ----> Gary

4th July 2007, 01:11 PM	#77 (permalink)
gdstorrick Sappling Join Date: May 2007 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 46	Well folks, there have been a lot of good discussions in the past few weeks. There are so many differences betwee what you-all do and what I do that I wonder if anything that I know or post on my web site has any relevance at all. Well, of course it has some, but it is really clear that we have a lot of differences in our needs, and that gives me a lot to think about. Sorry not to be around the last few weeks, I've done as much business travelling in the past five weeks as i normally do in a year, and right now I'm madly trying to finish my collection displays for the caving convention: I have 16 days to finish getting ready, but I think that I'll make it OK. Meanwhile, I'm still digesting everything you-all write. Thanks, ----> gary

6th July 2007, 08:51 PM	#81 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	I'd like to add another requirement to our wish list. The major de la major drawback to a good device is the fact that you can lose it. I would like for us to incorporate into the design, *the option to carry it in the front of the climber's saddle, permanantly.* If the device is always use during any climb, why have it go anywhere other than where it is used; up front. Front hardware. Frontware. Just the option. On a sliding D system, sliding frontware. Floating frontware. Does the thing really need to be removed? (Depends on the design.)

8th July 2007, 08:21 PM	#82 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	Oh, and an unstated, though almost too obvious to even list requirement, The only way a piece is to have any efficiency at all, eliminating the repetitive redundant again and again and again task of fashioning any rope or line into a knot or hitch and having to later on un-do them The way of the future the liberating joy and freedom of NO KNOTS I think we're ready to design.

9th July 2007, 07:11 AM	#83 (permalink)
TreeCo Mature tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 268	Thanks for keeping the ball rolling in this thread TM. My wife and I were correcting a bad lean the top of a red oak developed after a pine top landed in it during an ice storm several years ago. We are tieing it back to other larger trees. Looking up at our work afterwards I realized just how much of a labor saver total SRT tree work is going to be. Atached is a system used in the ISA TCC in Nashville in 2005 by Mark Chisholm. Access is SRT but a complete DdRT system hangs off of the SRT line. The SRT line is over a crotch and tied off to a tree on the ground so it can be pulled down afterwards. The block in the photo rachets. Dan

12th July 2007, 04:41 AM	#86 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	Hi Junior. That's a very good point about the permanence of the device on the saddle, and with your excellent observation, I can clear the air on that. I have a microcender adjuster on the flipline that never comes off. It is permanently installed. Just an example. The ferrules on my pole pruner poles are permanently installed. The steering wheel on my truck is permanently installed. The axel and roller in a pulley is permanently installed. By saying 'permanently installed' the thought is that the device is always there and is not taken on and off, like a caribiner, or something that connects to a caribiner. The big reason for this is two-fold; 1) it is always there on your saddle. If you put your saddle on, you clearly have the intent to ascend and descend a tree, there is almost no reason why it shouldn't always be there. And 2) You can't lose it, drop it, etc. This is rather important. I have had devices come and devices go. Usually they go becauase I have lost them, or I've been on ascent, rattling around through the brush and something shiny will fall from my hip, into the vine-covered ground below, never to be seen again. Worse yet, gets lost in the sawdust and ends up being bush tucker for the chipper. This just doesn't have to be the case, that is, if the design incorporates the solution into the design. The 'permanently installed' feature would simply be a grade 6 threadless shank bolt terminated farside with a nylon lock nut. This bolt would pass through a roller, just bigger than the bolt itself and this part of the device would be on the belly side of the sliding bridge. This would be permanent, though removable with tools. The other version of 'permanently installed' would be essentially the same as described above, though instead of the bolt, you would have a phat steel rivet, passing through the roller, passing through the far side of the device, then peened by you, the saddle owner, to terminate. For those climbers with a floating bridge where on some of the more 'mod' saddles, that bridge is constructed of rope. Imagine the device on the frontside of the bridge, conglomerated with a micropulley working the backside. This is how we create a device that doesn't have to be factory installed. Permanently installed' really means 'not easily removed'. That was an excellent point to bring up, Junior. In one of our upcoming designs, the core of the design is a functional caribiner. Since the triple lock caribiner has almost become universal for quick attachment and detachment of climbing lines and hardware, and it's almost always up front anyway, to incorporate it into the design of the ('permanently installed') descender, it can ALSO be used to attach to the straps of your ascenders making the device uniquely multifunctional, and to a degree, bidirectional. I can see ascending up, get to your place, flipline in, set your descent device with ascenders still on, then remove ascenders. With this thought you are never not attached to the climbing line during the few seconds of changeover. This would also allow midline changeovers while hanging in space. Stop, attach friction control, take up all slack, set hard lock. Little body bounce to release the cams on the ascenders, remove hardlock, come back down. There would be no actual need to remove the ascender from the rope until you got back to the ground. I think we plugged the essentialness of EZ midline changeovers somewhere in the requirements list.