Dr Storricks new tree devices

Ekka · 26th October 2007, 08:39 PM

I'm with you ...

However, devices must not rely upon spring loading for stopping coz if the spring fails you go down. Racks and unicender work on similar principals, camming actions are the alternative unless it's engineered so that if springs fail you lock off.

Which brings us back to the gri gri or the unicender type device.

At the end of the day the $10 piece of rope is starting to look pretty damned good isn't it.

JayD · 26th October 2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

I'm with you ...

However, devices must not rely upon spring loading for stopping coz if the spring fails you go down. Racks and unicender work on similar principals, camming actions are the alternative unless it's engineered so that if springs fail you lock off.

Which brings us back to the gri gri or the unicender type device.

At the end of the day the $10 piece of rope is starting to look pretty damned good isn't it.

It's just an idea,but havent said that I've watched this thread for some time and it appears to be going no where, Please don't take offence as I dont intend to offend,My idea basically is a re;engineered gri gri,turned on it's side haveing spring backed rollers applying the desired amount of friction needed.But hey lets pick it to pieces who knows we just might find the Holly Grail..LOL..I've put it out there come let's see what we get???

All The Best
JayD

Tree Machine · 27th October 2007, 07:59 AM

I appreciate that.

The JayD device is formally on the table. It will be given the same scrutiny, critique and forward thought as any other contender.

For those who don't know JayD he is one of the more ingeniucal dudes here and can fabricate just about any object that mankind can conceive. In other words JayD has the right tools and a set of skills that makes me take a rather serious look at a prototype JayD puts out there.

We will weave the JD (Jumar-Descender?) in and out of the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayD

I've watched this thread for some time and it appears to be going no where

My apologies. The tree business has me pushed to the physical limits these days. It is Fall, when the season changes from primarily pruning to primarily takedowns (jobs deferred when it was too hot to do them). The change of season I'm talking about is what's casually known as "Can you deadwood my oak before the leaves fall off" season. There's an over lap between the "primarily takedowns" and "Can you deadwood my oak before the leaves fall off" season. The last couple weeks has been a tree man's dream, big and bad as it comes, lots of air time, putting the current hardware (ATC Guide) to the test and capturing some photos for your eyes.

I am beaten and pummelled by our work, but alas, that is just a lame-ass excuse. TM needs to suck it up, process the images, and move this thread along. Jay D, thank you for the kick in the butt and your contribution. Some of the images are hard-earned, the use of the device in the tree, where either someone needs to take a picture of me (challenging, when you work alone), or I carry the camera into the tree (challenging in it's own way).

JayD · 28th October 2007, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBS

hmmm... if i understood that ....

hang a winch in the tree??

OK, What about if we have a little look into this misunderstanding, Maybe some good can come from it, really we need to conserve our energy and up down and around the tree, So what if do use a small winch in the tree for all up and down work, It would sure as hell save a lot of energy! As long as it's tested and rated for human lifting and ofcourse rated,and a locking device fitted incase of rapid decent, You could tie it in place of your TIP.
It would have to be a low power consuming winch,with safe guards we devise,it would be idealy light in construction but strong enought to handle the riggers of tree work???????What do you think??
JayD

Tree Machine · 28th October 2007, 06:57 AM

Sounds like we're taking the climb out of climbing.

To keep this thread from going too many directions, we been working a path where ascent is assumed via ascenders, 1:1 preferable, 2:1 if you want to go up at half the speed using twice the motion.

Crown travel, positioning, climbing back up while tending slack, and final abseil. These are generally where most of the time is spent. Ascenders are used only when there is non-climbable ascent to deal with, like from the ground to the tree, and the occasional long, limbless stem. Other than that, a device-based climb is done on a piece that allows precise friction control, hands-free lockoff and one-handed, exact positioning on the rope. 1:1 preferable (doubled or single), 2:1 (doubled) optional.

These are a few of the items on our requirements list. If a device doesn't fill our bill, we need to offer suggestions on how to modify it, or we scrap it for better options.

I'm with JayD on the 'Holy Grail', which to me is an uncomplicated device allowing ascent, descent and primarily 1:1 friction control in single or doubled rope fashion. This would be a Uni-device, and honestly, that's not what the thread is about. We started with friction control from the simplest of simplest forms (chain link), touched on figure 8's and have moved up a rung (belay tubes).

In the next step, let's move up to the most natural next level, slightly more complex, and pieces that actually fulfil our requirements list.
1:1 single, 1:1 doubled and 2:1 doubled, intrinsic lockoff, low-resistance slack tending, accurate, exacting, precision control of your position on rope.

Focus on the lockoff. That is something that 2:1 friction hitch climbers don't have as part of their reality. For the larger part of our Arborist population, lockoff is always there, unless you unlock, then you can move around. You have to manage your hitch from lockoff to free, and back to lockoff every time you take your hand off the hitch. With devices, you manage from free to lockoff, and back to free. I can see where it might be like having learned to drive on the left side of the road, then being somewhere where you have to drive on the right. It takes adjustment, but only discovering the new benefits will open the boxes we build around ourselves.

Tree Machine · 3rd November 2007, 06:15 AM

Here's a parting shot and my parting comments.

I apologize for the time between posts, but I am actually out climbing on the gear we're writing about. If I do a climb or two and the piece sucks, that result is clear in brief. If the piece works well, It really takes a lot of climbs under various conditions to really assess the potential and determine ways in which the device might become fully functional for us.

The ATC's are simple to use, inexpensive, available at many climbing sections of sporting goods stores. They can go 1:1 doubled rope descent, 2:1 doubled rope descent and single rope descent. The pieces are designed for 11 mm, 12 mm you can stuff in there, 13 mm forget about it. There is no intrinsic lockoff abilities. It tends slack very well, single or doubled. It's very quick on and off.

Not taking 13 mm rope and not having any lockoff ability definitely knocks it out of the running for a potential treeguy device. However, the positive elements of the device should be sought in future devices.

Before moving on to the next family of devices, any questions about the ATCs, or the ATC-esque belay tube family?

Tree Machine · 5th November 2007, 05:06 AM

Here is a Petzl Pirhana, technically a figure 8
but Petzl, in their finely illustrated instructions,
shows us some very interesting stuff:

<------Look at the hooks and horns.

Beautiful illustrations of soft lock and hard lock.

Three ways to route the rope.

Each way offers a different level of friction.
Look really close at how the rope runs around that steel quad-lock.....

Tree Machine · 5th November 2007, 05:13 AM

I find THAT really interesting because I believe this simple set of abilities (intrinsic soft-lock/hard lock, 1:1D 2:1D SRT, light, compact, affordable, won't bash you in the face (

)

We may need to refer back, but the petzl Pirhana actually covers all the biggies on our requirements list.

Interesting.

Let's note that and move on. We've got some MUCH more interesting terrain ahead.

Tree Machine · 5th November 2007, 05:44 AM

Here's a rough summary of the basic devices.

Tree Machine · 5th November 2007, 05:52 AM

A figure 8 used properly for short SRT drops.

I believe every device I've shown so far in the last 18 pages all have one thing shared in common:

They pass THROUGH the device, as a bight, and a connector (caribiner) links the rope (not necessarily the device) directly to your saddle.

The simple devices we'll be moving into here very soon also share this, slot blocks, as Dr. Storrick calls them, where belay tube transconfigures to belay plate.

Then we mix in some hooks and horns, ways to intrinsically lock off, .....

I feel like we're getting closer.

newguy18 · 5th November 2007, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

At the end of the day the $10 piece of rope is starting to look pretty damned good isn't it.

It sure is.

Tree Machine · 5th November 2007, 07:49 AM

Trust, you are not being denied your piece of rope.

gdstorrick · 11th November 2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree Machine

<SNIP>

The simple devices we'll be moving into here very soon also share this, slot blocks, as ...[Gary]... calls them, where belay tube transconfigures to belay plate

<SNIP>

Well, the main reason I invent names like "slot block" is to limit the number of devices I show on one page. My motive is to speed up my web site for people with slow connections. Of course, my figure eights pages are a mess in this respect, but I'm working on 'em.

----> just call me Gary

Tree Machine · 24th November 2007, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdstorrick

Re: SRT basic w/device

I have, for you Gary, a new SRT device, but the story on how the device came to be is wrapped around a treeguy sort of misssion.

OK, I'm leaving a job and it's getting on in the afternoon. I'm a little outside my zone and the route to my next estimate takes me past our nearby State fairgrounds. I'm toolin along in my little tree truck and all of a sudden I start seeing all these Jacked-up trucks pouring out of the fairgrounds entrance...

Tree Machine · 24th November 2007, 04:18 AM

So where I see these trucks pulling out, I pull in. I'm immediately flagged by security.

"Hold, up, hold up, the day is ending, we're sending people home."
"That's why I'm here."

"Huh?"

"End of day VIP."

There was a pause, just enough time to lay it on a little thicker. I tipped my glasses down, looked him right in the eye,
"I'm The Tree Machine"

"Oh, Ok, go on in."

I really tried to not bust out laughing.

At the moment I didn't really care whether or not I actually got in, but I was in and there was this processional of trucks leaving the main entrance, so I thought I'd park where I could sit and watch the fancy trucks roll on by. That just happened to be adjacent to the headquarters for the security guys, and I had to roll past a few of these dudes to get my primo parking spot.

As soon as I stopped, a security dude came right up, before he could utter a word, I said, "Tree Machine, ....VIP" and he turned and walked away back to his buddies. I am amazed I brought my camera.

26th October 2007, 08:39 PM	#276 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,979	Re: Dr Storricks new tree devices I'm with you ... However, devices must not rely upon spring loading for stopping coz if the spring fails you go down. Racks and unicender work on similar principals, camming actions are the alternative unless it's engineered so that if springs fail you lock off. Which brings us back to the gri gri or the unicender type device. At the end of the day the $10 piece of rope is starting to look pretty damned good isn't it. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

28th October 2007, 06:57 AM	#280 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 571	Simplicity Sounds like we're taking the climb out of climbing. To keep this thread from going too many directions, we been working a path where ascent is assumed via ascenders, 1:1 preferable, 2:1 if you want to go up at half the speed using twice the motion. Crown travel, positioning, climbing back up while tending slack, and final abseil. These are generally where most of the time is spent. Ascenders are used only when there is non-climbable ascent to deal with, like from the ground to the tree, and the occasional long, limbless stem. Other than that, a device-based climb is done on a piece that allows precise friction control, hands-free lockoff and one-handed, exact positioning on the rope. 1:1 preferable (doubled or single), 2:1 (doubled) optional. These are a few of the items on our requirements list. If a device doesn't fill our bill, we need to offer suggestions on how to modify it, or we scrap it for better options. I'm with JayD on the 'Holy Grail', which to me is an uncomplicated device allowing ascent, descent and primarily 1:1 friction control in single or doubled rope fashion. This would be a Uni-device, and honestly, that's not what the thread is about. We started with friction control from the simplest of simplest forms (chain link), touched on figure 8's and have moved up a rung (belay tubes). In the next step, let's move up to the most natural next level, slightly more complex, and pieces that actually fulfil our requirements list. 1:1 single, 1:1 doubled and 2:1 doubled, intrinsic lockoff, low-resistance slack tending, accurate, exacting, precision control of your position on rope. Focus on the lockoff. That is something that 2:1 friction hitch climbers don't have as part of their reality. For the larger part of our Arborist population, lockoff is always there, unless you unlock, then you can move around. You have to manage your hitch from lockoff to free, and back to lockoff every time you take your hand off the hitch. With devices, you manage from free to lockoff, and back to free. I can see where it might be like having learned to drive on the left side of the road, then being somewhere where you have to drive on the right. It takes adjustment, but only discovering the new benefits will open the boxes we build around ourselves.

5th November 2007, 05:06 AM	#282 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 571	8 as a belay tube Here is a Petzl Pirhana, technically a figure 8 but Petzl, in their finely illustrated instructions, shows us some very interesting stuff: <------Look at the hooks and horns. Beautiful illustrations of soft lock and hard lock. Three ways to route the rope. Each way offers a different level of friction. Look really close at how the rope runs around that steel quad-lock.....

5th November 2007, 05:13 AM	#283 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 571	The magic 8 I find THAT really interesting because I believe this simple set of abilities (intrinsic soft-lock/hard lock, 1:1D 2:1D SRT, light, compact, affordable, won't bash you in the face ( ) We may need to refer back, but the petzl Pirhana actually covers all the biggies on our requirements list. Interesting. Let's note that and move on. We've got some MUCH more interesting terrain ahead.

5th November 2007, 07:49 AM	#287 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 571	Trust, you are not being denied your piece of rope.