12 guage Line Launcher

Therrin

Oh yeah.... here it is. The modified baseball lobbing line launching system.



A heavily modified tactical Remington 870 12 guage.


A baseball, drilled, with a 5/8" wooden dowel inserted. (used gorilla glue, it's drying now)





I'll give it a test run tomorow morning.

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Jeff Darby

You would be draged away by the police here,..LOL..I really dont think you will have problems with non payers using your launcher..LOL

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Therrin

The left bowl has an empty, primed shell, along with the shot that came out of it. The right bowl has the plastic wadding, along with the powder.

I'll cut the powder in half, dump it back in, insert 3 cardboard disks, then stuff it with toilet paper and re-crimp it. Instant blanks



The powder weighed out to 10 grains per shell. So I'll set up the feed to drop 5 grains, and use it to re-charge the shells.

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Eric Frei

Isn't the whole barrel of that shotty gonna explode in ya face?

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Therrin

Nope.

The chemical way that shotgun powder burns is called conflagration, its kinda like a "slow-burn" albeit it happens really quickly. Black powder is chemically different in that it "explodes"... it reacts at a much higher rate.

By removing the two plastic wads, which impede the flow of the hot gasses from the explosion, you're effectively reducing the power output considerably.

The effect you get after that, is just some under-powered hot gasses wanting to escape the barrel. With the dowel in the end, they need to push it out before they can escape, which pushes the dowel to its escape velocity. It would "blow the barrel" if the dowel were somehow wedged or lodged in the barrel, and DIDNT allow the gasses to escape. Since the barrel is 3/4", and the dowel is 5/8", it slides easily in and out. The gasses in this case will just push it out when they escape.

Tomorow's test launches will show me just how much power the gasses have. Since I removed the restrictive plastic wadding which serves to multiply the outgas force, it should be more of a loud POP, than a big BANG.

Then again, the dowel is soft wood, and would be more likely to fragment and shatter out the end, in lieu of the barrel shattering. After the glue is dry, I'll place a rubber washer at the end of the wooden dowel, then screw a metal washer against it. This should help to give slight seal against the inner barrel, catching more of the outgassing force, as well as to keep the heat away from the soft wood of the dowel.

Whatsup, you guys don't learn this stuff in school over there?

Eric Frei

If I posted some of the stuff I made and done I'd be busted for something in this day and age. I loved Chemistry and blowing stuff up, back in my day you could walk into a gun store and buy a tin of flash powder for $15 no questions asked.

Now a days, I dunno, haven't been near a gun store for 20+ years.

I also used to make rockets, they'd go 1000' easy straight up leaving huge trail of smoke ... made them out of the cardboard rolls in the middle of those fabrics that are on display and on racks etc.

Had all types of stuff for every occasion.

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Therrin

"Had all types of stuff for every occasion."

Sounds a little like my shed, Ekka =)

I was gonna say "it's not like I'm a gun nut". But that may not be quite true. I just think that having a line-launching system would be pretty cool to gain access to stuff that I couldn't throw to. I know you guy's use big shots and such, but if this thing will throw a line several times as far... well, <shrugs> that'd be pretty cool wouldn't it?


Between being a tree climber, rock climber, a divemaster, wreck diver, deep diver, shooter, hunter, reloader, atv enthusiast, pyro/explosives film tech, and streetbike rider.... I decided that if there's anything in life worth living for, or worth doing, I want to get it out of the way while I'm still young.

So far, I seem to be doing pretty well in that aspect. I gotta thank God for keepin me alive through most of it though, lol.

It's not that I'm crazy (), I just live my life to the fullest.

Tree Machine

Well, cheers to that.

Hey could ya..... just because we love ya..... on the first shot maybe rig a light line and pull the trigger remotely? It all does sound good in theory, but a lot of miserable miscalculations started by sounding good in theory.

I have concern about the mass of the baseball, the work required to accelerate it from 0 to whatever vs the energy stored in the powder. Also, the hollow between the dowel and the charge. My sense says lengthen the dowel to capacity.

Sounds like a Mythbusters episode.

Therrin

"Hey could ya..... just because we love ya..... on the first shot maybe rig a light line and pull the trigger remotely?"

Yup! I've got a tire filled with concrete with a 4x4 post stickin out of the middle that I'm going to use as a launch stand, I'll strap the shotgun to that and then use a string to remotely set it off. Thanks for checking though

That testing method is actually per TM 31-210 "Improvised Munitions Handbook" published by the Department of the Army. They actually suggest using a longer dowel also, I hadn't thought about the gap causing trouble... I'll have to think about that one, see if it's a problem or not. The balls I got were only 10c apiece, so I got a couple.

TreeDimensional

Therrin, the headspace could seriously bulge the barrel. I had it happen when a large snowflake entered the muzzle between shots. This caused,as the gunsmith put it, a compression bulge. Tell you what, I'll swap you shotguns, I'd hate to see you exlpode a nice one.

But stranger things have happened, a guy I know instructs hunter safety. Part of the course shows a shot gun exploding. He basically puts a glob of mud in the muzzle, clamps it to a shooting bench and remote fires it. One time he was using an old Remington, and it took three #2 bird shot to make it blow.

By the way, you can keep your shotgun, it a PITA to jump through the hoops in Canada.

Therrin

Hah... yeah it's a PITA here too.

I'll rework the headspacing deal.

Also, part of the reason why I don't have as much chance of that happening with this, is that I removed the super-tight plastic wad pieces, and halved the powder. There's considerably less force trying to escape the barrel than there would be with a normal cartridge.

I've got two barrels for this one... I'll probably use the short one.

I actually have two 12 guages, but the other one is 80 years old, all walnut and nickel steel she's purdy though, so I don't shoot her.

TreeDimensional

Sorry for the multiple post, but I remembered something after I hit the submit button. What time are you thinkin' about running the trial, Tree World doesn't have an Injury and Death Forum (Thank goodness) so I plan on listening to the Lancaster News.

My wife tends to ride herd on most of my out there ideas, and she just mentioned that gun would be worth between $750 and $1000. Ya know what a big shot is worth? I might add that if you discharge a firearm within the city or town limits, you'll more than likely end up with some new jewlery, the kind of bracelet with a chain in the middle. I DON'T believe anyone has ever been cited for misuse of a Big Shot.

Well, if you can be good, TRY and be safe!

Therrin

I live on a horse ranch. They do mounted shooting events here pretty often. No bullets, just powder charges. It's a "shooting friendly" city for the most part. There are advantages to living on a 5 acre parcel with neighbors that come over to show you their new guns when they get them

And yeah... close to a grand is about right, she's got a good eye.

I'll look into a big shot. Doesnt sound nearly as fun though =(


Actually, the idea you gave me on the phone, about the scuba tank pressure powered system sounded pretty freaking cool. That wouldn't be as questionable in terms of legality. I need to pick up a shraeder valve for it though. I might switch over to that idea completely, considering the safety factors. I'm still gonna test this thing tomorow though.... lol.

Tree Machine

Test away!

I bought my 13 year old nephew a potato gun for his birthday last year, didn't go over too well with the rest of the family. It was of the compressed air type, not the explosive charge type. I gave it a brief thought as a shotline launcher, but the BigShot is just too effective to try something more expensive and complicated.

I look forward to seeing your results. I don't think a half charge can provide the 'horsepower' to move that mass very far against gravity and frictional air resistance, but the pull of the trigger will tell.

I'm thinkin a hollow, bottom-end-sealed, aluminum tube with a golf ball as the projectile head. Heh heh.

Your line will slow things also, it's really fat, as far as a practical shotbag line. 'Course, yours is not a shotbag line, it's a shotgun line, so as far as experience goes, I really don't have a clue. 1.75 mm zing-it line, or braided 80 lb test fishing line, maybe. Just a guess.

Therrin

I chose the thicker line, because I'll mostly be using it on pines. Anything smaller, or something like fishing line, would just break on the bark.
I'll have to experiment with line thickness and drag characteristics...

I'm gonna wrap the line around a big coffee can, so as the projectile travels, the line can spool off easily without snagging.

newguy18

Just keep us updated and don't hurt yourself if you can help it and you said I was crazier than you.lol.

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old schooler

Therrin

I try to match my craziness and safety issues... just cuz the *idea* is crazy doesnt mean I'll be holding the thing the first 5 times I try it. lol.

Most crazy things can be done safely. Parasailing on a used chute pulled by a pickuptruck might be the exception though...

newguy18

yeah might have to try that after I go freefalling.I won't go anyless than 30,000 feet up.I ain't no sissy.[but sometimes kinda stupid.]

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Therrin

I'd like to try base-jumping one of these days. The Sears tower woulda been great for it while I was in chicago!

Mighta gotten some of those shiny new bracelets that TreeDimensional mentioned though.... uhoh!

Steve Tipton

I'm bustin' to hear how it goes1

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shaggs

Yeah Ken,
Can you video the "shoot".
If it doesn't work you may be able to win some money on "America's funniest home video's!"

TreeDimensional

Shaggs, there are two other TV shows thar come to mind "Americas Most Wanted" and "Crime Stoppers".

Therrin

<sigh> It's *not* illegal here.... I don't think so anyway. I'll call dad and ask, he's been a cop for 24 years

TreeDimensional

Therrin, it might not be illegal out at the ranch, but in town?????
You know what they say, what happens at the ranch stays at the ranch, or somethin' like that. Also watch out for the spool of rope, it might just cause a Major League curve ball.

Tree Machine

Sounds good in theory but this predictably won't work, but give it a try. Here's what will happen and why.

Too small a spool diameter vs too thick a line, the line will want to blaze off the fastest right after you pull the trigger. The line itself has enough mass to cause resistance. As the line begins to spool off in a circular motion, the angular momentum will drive the force of the line outward, perpenicular to the vertical trajecory. The projectile's vector is upward, not outward, so these two forces will, not oppose, but interfere with each other. The result will be the immediate slowing of your upward forces as the outward force of the spooling line is greatest at the time the upward force is greatest. As the acceleration of the projectile slows, the outward force of the line peeling off the spool will diminish, all the while gravity, and to a lesser extent air resistance will will do what they do. By this time, it's over.

That is, if it spools properly. It probably won't. If not wound properly, and without a 'lip' on the edge of the can, more than one wind can come off at the same time, and those loops will tangle, rather than unfurl.

My prediction is you will pull the trigger and the coffee can and line will be yanked straight up in the air. Anchor the spool, the only thing that won't happen is the can won't be yanked upward, but you projectile will suffer excessive drag and slow it's acceleration starting immediately.

The best approach, if you choose to stay with that line is flake it out, the end of the line starting from outward of the direction you'll shoot (yes, you're shooting upward, but probably at a slight angle outward). Flake in an S pattern from out there, back to your launch pad, not crossing the line back over the line itself. Be on a flat, smooth, obstruction-free surface.

The coffee can trial will fail, unless your can is a meter in diameter, slightly tapered and with enough lip so that the one deploying length of loop does not drag and pull off the next series with it.

Same principle as a spincast fishing reel, like if you had two identical rods, two identical reels, same weight you're casting. One reel has ultralight line, the other deepsea fishing line. The light line will naturally cast much further. You can't fight the laws of physics. I know this for certain because I fought the law, and the law won.

We still anticipate the trial, don't let me discourage you.

TreeDimensional

That is a really good observation, your are beginning to sound like Spyder on another site. I, personally am worried about the pressure rise between the Primer/powder and the Dowel/ball. I understand that the powder load has been lessened, but I wonder what the powder burn rate is. I know one thing for sure, a 22 caliber blank will launch an empty tin can a long way. I also know that increasing the volume of powder really makes stuff happen, I have the hearing loss to prove it.

I reload rifle rounds to bench rest tolerances, and have seen dramatic results in performance from 1/1000th headspace. The offset of the attachment of the line in relationship to the dowel will undoubtably impact the flight of the ball. Maybe he should put some arrow fletching on the dowel to stabalize the flight, I don't know how he could keep from buning up plastic fletching though?

It looks like he has adequate scales to assist in reproducing a reload, I hope nothing happens, so he can try it again. My glass is only half full on this one.

Therrin

Eh, I truly hait to keep you all waiting with baited breath.....but....

I just got home from a HUGE TD, I'm dead tired, there isn't much sunlight left, there's an AA meeting I *really* wanna go to at 6pm, which gives me an hour to nap. <shrugs> sorry!!

However, since tomorow I'm doing work for my customers out by the *other* ranch I used to live at, way out in the desert, I'll take the stuff and do it out there. Noone will care, most of them have shooting ranges

It'll also give me some time to adapt to changes based on TreeMachine's conjectures. I agree the line is too heavy, I think some of the 2mm slickline that TreeDimensional told me about would be much better. I'll end up flaking out the line for the first couple shots, just so I don't have to deal with spooling yet. Actually, for the *FIRST* shot, I'm not going to use line at all.

About blanks... I just burned some shotshell powder in a paper bowl last night (for chuckles,....didn't get many, it burns "slow", relatively speaking)

Normal blanks are made to sound...LOUD! they're usually loaded with more powder than normal, since there's no projectile to bother with creating overpressure issues. Also, the reason your .22 round has so much power to it is because .22 rounds, not being center fired with a primer, use a contact-sensitive EXPLOSIVE which is dribbled to the bottom of the casing, the powder rests on top of this.

Once again, shotshell powder is *NOT* an explosive, its a conflagrant. (conflagrative?) Two completely different chemical reactions. Plus... there's a bit of wadding material between the brunt of the hot gasses and the dowel.

Fletching is a good idea... but now this is starting to get elaborate. Tomorows first run will just be the "stick & ball" setup, to see if it gets much loft or if it is shattered outright.

Though I gotta say, I'm leaning toward high pressure air powered now. Still though, we're gonna do this thing tomorow!!!! Hope you guys don't keel over from anticipation, I know I'm bummed about not doin it tonight

newguy18

Maybe instead of a coffee can an electric fence wire spool.Your on a ranch so you should be familar with it.not as big around as a coffee can but it should in theory create enough drag with one and a half to two wraps if everything else is correct.

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Therrin

how is the line handled with a big shot?

newguy18

don't know I don't own one or even really looked at one.i guess just flaked on the ground.

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