What is this????

OutofMytree

I guess this is the right forum but Ekka can move the thread if it isnt.








Saw this a couple of days ago. Now I must first say that I have zero knowledge or experience with bracing. In fact, when first asked about tree bracing, I thought it was what you did with your feet when using a 660.

Anyway, what is this cabling for? The tree is a beautifull looking lemon scented gum that is simply in a tough spot. The business who's property the tree is on are very keen on keeping their gum trees. They have more than a dozen specimens over 20 metres but sadly all of them are, like this one, either surrounded by brick paving or worse still bitumen.

newguy18

My guess is guying of some sort,trying to keep it up right do to the fact that it has pavement around it and in order to put pavement down,you need to compact the soil,which we all know is bad for the roots and can lead to the eventual death or severe stress of the trees.

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Ekka

That's the dumbest thing I seen in ages!

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TrevMcRev

Absolutly nothing!

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JayD

Paranoir,what a joke!

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Sean Freeman

Its fairly simple really the owner was not happy with the attachment of those window awnings worried they cold fall and hurt someone....so had a fall arrest system installed to catch them in the event of something bad happening.

On a sad note if I were asked out to a site and saw that I would strongly suspect the tree had no root system to speak of and this farce is someone's idea of an arse covering excersize.

JayD

I thought the same thing,"did they cut the roots that bad"..and this will see it straight...LOL...near on a band-aid on an amputation.

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Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others

Galbee

I wonderhow long the tree has been there compared to the building? would like to see the plans for that build.

Ekka

Now besides the root area stuffed the trunk also!

It seems a mighty long hill we have to climb, everyone an expert in what we do.

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OutofMytree

Lemon scenteds grow very fast here. I worked on some about 5km from the pictures above that were all over 30 metres and were exactly 42 years old. That said they were in a private park and had near to ideal growing positions.

The business in the pictures has been there since 1968 so its probable that they planted the tree. I would say the building you can see is less than 15 years old. I will contact the site manager and have a chat. He owes me for a weekend removal done in under 2 hours from the time they called it in.

If you look closely at the collar you can see the chafing marks it has already made. The anchor points will not hold a tree of this mass if it really does fall so I am at a loss to explain the function of the cabling. What seems odd to me is the expert fixing. I won't bore you with the details but the cables themselves are well made and well installed. It is almost as though it was installed by someone with expert cabling knowledge and little or no tree knowledge.. hmmm.

I will post updates.

OutofMytree

Have a meeting booked with site manager next week. He tells me the owners will not allow anyone to touch the trees without their express permission. The other dozen gum trees look to be in good condition albeit that they need thinning out before summer. Will take a few dozen pictures and provide a site report. Hopefully I can convince them to remove the dog collar.

willem

Maybe the wall is part of movieset and if not tied to the trie it will blow down

Sean Freeman

Not really sure what you mean by thinning...removal of what, to achieve what?

OutofMytree

The trees have full canopies and, as I said earlier, all the ones I have seen so far, have paving or bitumen right up to the trunk.

In Perth we have consistant sou'westers from Apr-Dec but then 3 months of strong easterlies as well as temperatures over 40' C. It is common for eucs with dense canopies and heavy leaf mass like tuarts, sugar gums and rose gums to lose branches from both the top and the bottom of the canopy.

I have found from experience the solution is to remove high risk lower limbs that carry a lot of leaf weight at the end. The "thinning" I referred to is pruning to reduce wind resistance in the middle and top of the canopy. So an overall pruning, removing more branch weight than leaf weight. You can generally take more from a Tuart than any other being native to the area but 20% has proven to be a safe reduction.

If I am succesful in securing the work I will post plenty of before and after photo's. There are lots of good arborists in Perth but I see very few preventative pruning jobs done and would appreciate any comments or advice you may have to improve my work.

Hmmm. Just remembered a job I did 3 months ago. These are the before and after. The eucs had been butchered at least twice and had extensive parrot damage in many of the forks. The exposed wood was showing signs of rot. The plan was to remove those trees which were beyond hope and allow those remaining room to flourish.















The building in the background is a public health clinic and the road in the foreground is the main exit from a busy shopping centre. You can imagine the results of a significant branch dropping from the Sugar gums. Note photo 1 far right leader approx 5m off the ground. That branch was found on the footpath on a Monday morning. It took two guys to drag it out the back. I don't get these sorts of jobs every day so I still get a little rush of pride every time I look at the finished result.

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anuvadave

aaahhh .....this is a highly specialized technique.
the benefit is, should the tree fall in such a way that it misses the building completely, the wall will be ripped down with it, hence the properly insured owner gets a new house!

newguy18

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Knotahippie

Is there a signifigant target, you guys mention that already?

OutofMytree

Got a little more information now. Had a meet and greet with the maintenance superviser day before yesterday. The building was completed about 2 years ago. Part of the site works involved excavating approximately 2m below soil level and as close as 1.5 m to the trunk. The building owners planted all the eucs nearly 40 years ago and were mad keen to keep them but were also afraid of the results of this one failing. The cables were put in place to prevent a fall and hopefull allow the tree to recover enough root strength to be kept. The canopy looks pretty good and branch growth is consistant with the species in local enviroment.

I finished mapping and photographing this site today. I was impressed. They have 36 significant eucalypts in the middle of an industrial complex. Only three of them look to have been hacked which is outstanding given the normal "business" approach to large trees on commercial properties. There is a fair bit of work to be done here including getting rid of three dangerous trees but its still great to see a business being genuinely "green" rather than just mouthing the words. I really hope I get to prune these eucs and will post the before and afters if i do.

TreeSpecialist

It appears that with the cables have wrapped 100% of the circumference of the tree and what hasn't been cut off of the root system for the foundation has been covered with an impervious cover.

Either the tree will be dead in a few years from strangulation or die from root loss - end result is the same.

Should the tree somehow survive, I would doubt that the anchor points on the building were designed to hold the tree up. A good wind on a full canopy should either pop those anchor points loose or pull the wall down.

In 35 years of cabling, I've only been talked into cabling a tree to a building once. I used draw bolt springs to minimize the shock loading on the building and it was a much smaller tree than shown in this example. I also wrote out a very long disclaimer recommending against cabling the tree to the structure and had the owner sign it.

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OutofMytree

If I haven't already said it, I have no tree cabling experience whatsoever. Is it possible to support the tree in some fashion without restricting sap flow permanently? What if there was a buffer between the chains and the tree like belt rubber?

I put the total mass of this tree at about 5000kg and I am a pretty good judge of weight for this species. The cables are secured to 150mm rsj's and from the ground I would put the cable diameter at 12mm. The chain is 38mm link galv welded. I cannot see the turnbuckles or links closely enough but if they are in sync with the rest of the system I have no fear of the tree coming down. So my concerns are not for public safety but rather the ongoing health of the tree.

Is two years too short a time to gauge the possible root damage to a +20metre Lemon Scented Gum or should I be waiting longer??

TS I would love some more input from you. If we can assume that my estimation of cable and support strength is accurate, is there a way to use this system to ensure public safety but to also keep the tree as healthy as it can be given the circumstances?

TreeSpecialist

A through bolt backed up with a washer and nut with the cable threaded through an eye nut ( Forged Clevises, Turnbuckles, Turnbuckle Assemblies, Eye Nuts, Shoulder Eyebolts, Plain Eyebolts, Rod Ends, Clevis Pins )

would be my suggestion. The through bolt needs to be installed on the same plane as the cable is pulling.

A drawbar spring should be on the end next to the building to relieve some strain there as well. ( Drawbar Springs - Century Spring Corp. )

While you're working with an impossible situation, these changes will improve it and give the tree a fighting chance to survive.

You need to address the root/ impervious cover situation as well.

Also, inform your client that in spite of everything you can do to "save" the tree, it should still be removed.

Let them elect to keep it against your advice to remove it. And have them sign something to that effect.

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Knotahippie

I wouldn't drill through that stem unless I had to.

For a tree that's had it's roots hacked, might not be a great idea to impede vascular flow with a through bolt?

How bout' Cobra cable, non invasive and reduces loading and strong as steel. + you come by a couple times a year to check it. $$$

TreeSpecialist

A through bolt would only impede 1/2 to 5/8 of an inch of vascular tissue - far less than a pruning wound on the trunk would do.

Cables/ bolts last 30 to 50 years. Cobra looses 50% of its strength in 5 years.
Wrapped against the trunk, the Cobra system would impede vascular flow in the same way the cables are doing now - with 100% of the circumference wrapped.

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Knotahippie

Drying could make that wound much larger as time goes on. If scribed for washer, drying could make an even larger wound + potential cracking.

Not to mention that Eucs are subject to brown rot and decay can become an issue within a few years.

Even with long life of steel, regular inspection is still required.

It's really the shock loading with steel that turns me off to cabling.

Is cable supposed to be tight around trunk? Cobra or other nylon systems have a much wider profile and distribute force more evenly than steel wrapped.

I don't like cables so much that I don't put em' in, I give those jobs away. From what I've read it's the most tech. tree tool there is...alot of factors to keep in mind and too much liability for me...

TreeSpecialist

[QUOTE]Inscribing for washers went out of the ANSI standards several years ago.

Yes, yearly inspection is recommended on any system.

Buzzwords? If "shock loading" was such a problem, cabling would have gone away years ago. In this instance, I was recommending draw bar springs to reduce or eliminate "shock loading."

Clearly you have never cabled, read the ANSI standards, or perhaps even seen a properly cabled tree. The cable is never wrapped around a stem or trunk when done properly.

You're walking away from potential profit while failing to serve your clients well. The liability falls on the person who fails to comply with industry standards. Cabling done well according to industry standards prolongs the life of a tree while making it safer to live beneath.

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OutofMytree

TS I have concerns about boring through a tree but as I said earlier I have no cabling experience whatsoever. I have some questions that I hope you can answer.

Given the manner in which trees compartmentalise, would vertical plates make better "washers"?

What materials would the bolt need to be made of to avoid causing an adverse reaction in the tree. Well worse than the usual, "Oi, who put this dirty great spike through me!", reaction.......

From a structural point of view, I would expect the bolt to be secured to the tree. Locked at either end and locked to the bolt itself. As the tree grows this would mean excess pressure requiring regular adjustment. Or is it "normal" to allow the tree to grow around the bolt?

Is there any potential for significant rot to be generated by using a bolt and therefore creating a hazard rather than eliminating one?

Could you post a picture or pictures of a system in place with bolts or perhaps a link to a trade site with that sort of detail?

Phew! That's all I can think of for the moment. Look forward to reading your response.

Knotahippie

I brought up some valid points earlier TreeSpecialist.

I've talked to alot of tree dudes that still scribe all kinds of stuff.

Brown rots are a pretty serious problem with Eucs. Do you know about brown rots.?

When I was talking about cable around the trunk being tight I was reffering to Cobra Cable systems, they are non invasive.

Steel isn't the only option and there are some drawbacks, that's all I was saying bro.

TreeSpecialist

Simple round washers will make less of a "wound" as they compress the bark.

Galvanized rods work well enough - stainless steel are better but cost 3 to 4 times as much.

The tree will simply grow over the eye nut and washer. As the tree covers the eye nut and washer, the connection will be stronger as new tissue covers the connections.

Other considerations to consider would be some crown reduction pruning every couple of years to keep the tree low and compact.

You need to weigh the "hazard" of a) cables [either steel as in the picture or cobra as you suggest] wrapped completely around the circumference or b) the installation of a through bolt with the cable attached to the eye nut.

Total circumferential strangulation vs. the possibility of brown rot... hmmm.
Left alone it in its current state, I don't think you'll have to worry about brown rot. It will be strangled by the cables in place before the rot sets in.

Cabling a tree in an already bad situation will only prolong the inevitable - the removal of the tree. Cabling correctly will give the tree a somewhat longer life. I would still suggest getting the client to admit that removal is an option they should consider.

I'll try to find some pictures locally of trees cabled correctly and post them.

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Knotahippie

We always use arbor grade oval washers...

OutofMytree

Thanks for the input guys. I am learning more about cabling and liability here than in the last two years out on the tools.

Removal of that tree is going to be a topic of discussion when I get to talk to the board of directors. Always assuming they WANT to talk to me....