untying a jammed knot

ggg · 16th May 2007, 12:13 PM

hi guys,

Just wanted to share a method i use to untie jammed knots. Someone told me about this at work a couple of years ago and I been using it ever since. I stand the knot up against the deck and pound it with a hammer until it flatens. Then stand it up again on the new axis and flaten it the other way. If you keep doing this, the knot will loosen. Most of you may already know this already but I figure I would mention it just in case since I haven't seen it mentioned on the web yet.
gary

Ekka · 16th May 2007, 01:43 PM

Only concern I have is the flattening of the knot will result (maybe) in fibres being damaged reducing rope strength.

Tying the right knot for the right application results in less binding, however tying knots in wet rope is always worse than dry.

I have had 35T excavators pulling on knots and they came undone by hand ... your choice of knot is very important and avoid wet rope.

JayD · 16th May 2007, 02:48 PM

Hi Gary,
Obviosly this technique works for you,but I would shudder of the thought of pounding our ropes with a hammer, It would have to be classified as a grade #1 fall??? correct me if I'm wrong, I would retire this rope straight away.Pounding a rope with a hammer would weaken it substantialy??If it works for you just don't use for anything that counts.

TREE-SURFER · 17th May 2007, 08:23 AM

GGG, I gotta go with JD and Ekka on this one. Smashing seven bells outta a rope with a hammer, can only result in it's failure at some point in it's life, but sooner rather than later!!!!. What sort of knot have you had jam up on you so bad, for you to do that to it?

ggg · 17th May 2007, 05:31 PM

I use straps at work to do align pipes aboard navy ships (submarines). Most of the time I don't have the right shackles etc to do the job on hand so i use straps to to form loops etc. At other times I don't have much room so i use a turniquet to draw pipes away or towards a joint. The knots get pretty tight sometimes (I use a lot of bowlins).

I fully agree with all your concerns but I thought you guys might keep this trick in mind when you have a knot you really can't untie. It may not be as bad as it sounds because you do not have to "smash" it with the hammer. More like working it to flatten on one side then flipping it and working to flatten it on the other. I don't recommend this for all uses but try it and you may be pleasantly surprised.
gary

Ekka · 17th May 2007, 05:53 PM

How heavy are those things you're lifting?

ggg · 17th May 2007, 07:48 PM

I don't normally use these methods for lifting. It is more to give me mechanical advantage to pull things in alignment mainly piping, and other pieces of equipment that I need to align to get a pin in etc. The amount of force I normally generate using these methods are maybe 100+ lbs (Just guessing). The longer the turniquet the easier it is to generate the force. For heavier work I call in the riggers and they have the right equipment, chain falls, shackles, wire rope, etc.

I only mentioned this because I don't know anything else I can contribute, and I think it is useful to know. You guys should give it a try. Maybe it works best with straps which is what I normally use (less spring back in case something gives).

You don't have to smash the knot flat for this to work. You just pound on it to flattens out a bit on one axis and then turn it and flaten it on the new axis.
I guess you could even use a plastic mallet to minimize damage to the fibers.

The long of this story is that the shipyard disallowed the mechanics from using come-a-longs, wire rope, shackels etc. Only the rigger shop is now allowed to use rigging equipment. The theory is they have the formal training, and load tested equipment. Someone probably tied to the wrong place and bent or damaged equipment. Now everyone else does things the hard way, as the saying goes "You wanna do it the easy way or you wanna do it the HE-MAN way (joke)". We use a lot of straps because we tie to ships equipment and unless it is a padeye some things can be damaged/nicked with wire rope etc.

I do have a come-a-long that I use sparingly with straps. Yes it is not really allowed but since my job is to assist the shipsforce with troubleshooting and repair (as opposed to shipyard doing the repair) I cover myself by saying it is shipsforce equipment we are using.Those are the only times I am extra careful about straps breaking and I do take precautions such as using hold backs in case the main strap breaks. The knots can get really tight when you use chain falls to move equipment. Even in these instances there is hardly any lifting situations.

I am still glad I brought this up because based on your response most of you have never seen it. Even in the shipyard I hardly see this done. But you gotta try it to see what I am talking about. I have never been unable to untie a knot using this method even after I use a come a long pulling 1/2 ton (max rating).

I do thank all of you for your response. At least I got a thread going.

Ekka · 17th May 2007, 10:54 PM

Interesting

We just had a similar over ride on a crane job ... the guy with the doggers ticket took control and done it his way which wasn't as good as our way.

Tickets for everything is the way it's going, but it's hard to find places to get those tickets in some cases.

yooper · 19th May 2007, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggg

hi guys,

Just wanted to share a method i use to untie jammed knots. Someone told me about this at work a couple of years ago and I been using it ever since. I stand the knot up against the deck and pound it with a hammer until it flatens. Then stand it up again on the new axis and flaten it the other way. If you keep doing this, the knot will loosen. Most of you may already know this already but I figure I would mention it just in case since I haven't seen it mentioned on the web yet.
gary

Tried the method on my kids shoe lace today... good thing I had some twine in the barn!!!! Im over 10 miles from civilisation...let alone a town. mayby next time i will use a smalleer hammer!

ggg · 21st May 2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yooper

Tried the method on my kids shoe lace today... good thing I had some twine in the barn!!!! Im over 10 miles from civilisation...let alone a town. mayby next time i will use a smalleer hammer!

Sorry if your son's shoelace got destroyed. It doesn't work that well with string. But try it with nylon straps or rope and it is invaluable when you get in that situation.

I emphasize that you are not trying to actually flatten the knot. The idea is to work the knot using the hammer. You don't have to smash it. It is like squeezing the knot along different axis but using the hammer to do this. By forcing the knot to take different shapes the knot will eventually loosen up until you can pull out a loop.

When I first described the method I used the work "flatten" to indicate that you tap it on the axis that is protruding. But you don't need to smash it flat.

You'll never know until you try it. But like I said it doesn't work that well with string.
gary

Ekka · 22nd May 2007, 01:21 AM

ggg, got any pics of ya work place or do you have to keep it secret?

ggg · 22nd May 2007, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

ggg, got any pics of ya work place or do you have to keep it secret?

Ekka,
I work in a naval shipyard. Not allowed to bring cameras or take pictures. The work I do is very interesting and there is so much you can learn due to the different trades here. But nothing like the breathtaking rush some of you experiance up on those awesome trees. I saw Streyken's video on double blocking and I was sincerely impressed. I can see why the safety concerns were mentioned (this shipyard would never allow something like that). But watching him you could see he knew what he was doing. The only caution I might have added is, things happen when you are fatigued but did not want to give Streyken the impression that it is criticism on my part (someone that didn't even know your world existed). Streyken probably knows his limits and has the discipline when not to take that extra chance. After doing it for that long, he's still alive and still doing it his way aint he?

Therrin · 14th December 2007, 01:42 AM

I know what he means about knots in straps. I used to use a ton of 1" tubular webbing for all my straps. If they don't come loose on you early on, then they tend to jam down pretty tight even on just bodyweight.

I've got some older straps that I don't use anymore, but still have their knots tied. I'll give this a try and see if it works.

TreeCo · 14th December 2007, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggg

hi guys,

Just wanted to share a method i use to untie jammed knots. Someone told me about this at work a couple of years ago and I been using it ever since. I stand the knot up against the deck and pound it with a hammer until it flatens. Then stand it up again on the new axis and flaten it the other way. If you keep doing this, the knot will loosen. Most of you may already know this already but I figure I would mention it just in case since I haven't seen it mentioned on the web yet.
gary

That is what we call an Axeknot.

Not worth a damn!

George Hayduke · 14th December 2007, 01:59 PM

Using something like a smooth pipe or tapered branch as a fid in the knot will make it much easier to untie. All you have to do is figure out where the highest load will be in the knot, slip in the fid and reef away.

Pound out or cut off the fid and the knot has some air inside to allow it to be broken open.

A biner with a no-hook nose works well for smaller diameter cordage and webbing. Shackle pins work too but be careful of the threads.

Having a turner make up some fids out of brass or dense wood would be the coolest tool to have. Find some old fids in the splicing loft.

newguy18 · 15th December 2007, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeCo

That is what we call an Axeknot.

Not worth a damn!

First time I've ever agreed with you on aything and probabley the last.

TreeCo · 16th December 2007, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

First time I've ever agreed with you on aything and probabley the last.

I feel so warm and fuzzy hearing that.

16th May 2007, 12:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
ggg Sappling Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 6	untying a jammed knot hi guys, Just wanted to share a method i use to untie jammed knots. Someone told me about this at work a couple of years ago and I been using it ever since. I stand the knot up against the deck and pound it with a hammer until it flatens. Then stand it up again on the new axis and flaten it the other way. If you keep doing this, the knot will loosen. Most of you may already know this already but I figure I would mention it just in case since I haven't seen it mentioned on the web yet. gary

16th May 2007, 01:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Only concern I have is the flattening of the knot will result (maybe) in fibres being damaged reducing rope strength. Tying the right knot for the right application results in less binding, however tying knots in wet rope is always worse than dry. I have had 35T excavators pulling on knots and they came undone by hand ... your choice of knot is very important and avoid wet rope. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

16th May 2007, 02:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
JayD Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 888	Hi Gary, Obviosly this technique works for you,but I would shudder of the thought of pounding our ropes with a hammer, It would have to be classified as a grade #1 fall??? correct me if I'm wrong, I would retire this rope straight away.Pounding a rope with a hammer would weaken it substantialy??If it works for you just don't use for anything that counts. __________________ Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory

17th May 2007, 08:23 AM	#4 (permalink)
TREE-SURFER Mature tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Isle of Man,UK. Posts: 407	GGG, I gotta go with JD and Ekka on this one. Smashing seven bells outta a rope with a hammer, can only result in it's failure at some point in it's life, but sooner rather than later!!!!. What sort of knot have you had jam up on you so bad, for you to do that to it? __________________ The Aerial Arborist Isle of Man Tree Surgeon\| All Aspects of Tree Work Andy@Aerial-Arborist.co.uk What experts say about TOPPING

17th May 2007, 05:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	How heavy are those things you're lifting? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

17th May 2007, 05:31 PM	#5 (permalink)
ggg Sappling Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 6	I use straps at work to do align pipes aboard navy ships (submarines). Most of the time I don't have the right shackles etc to do the job on hand so i use straps to to form loops etc. At other times I don't have much room so i use a turniquet to draw pipes away or towards a joint. The knots get pretty tight sometimes (I use a lot of bowlins). I fully agree with all your concerns but I thought you guys might keep this trick in mind when you have a knot you really can't untie. It may not be as bad as it sounds because you do not have to "smash" it with the hammer. More like working it to flatten on one side then flipping it and working to flatten it on the other. I don't recommend this for all uses but try it and you may be pleasantly surprised. gary

17th May 2007, 07:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
ggg Sappling Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 6	I don't normally use these methods for lifting. It is more to give me mechanical advantage to pull things in alignment mainly piping, and other pieces of equipment that I need to align to get a pin in etc. The amount of force I normally generate using these methods are maybe 100+ lbs (Just guessing). The longer the turniquet the easier it is to generate the force. For heavier work I call in the riggers and they have the right equipment, chain falls, shackles, wire rope, etc. I only mentioned this because I don't know anything else I can contribute, and I think it is useful to know. You guys should give it a try. Maybe it works best with straps which is what I normally use (less spring back in case something gives). You don't have to smash the knot flat for this to work. You just pound on it to flattens out a bit on one axis and then turn it and flaten it on the new axis. I guess you could even use a plastic mallet to minimize damage to the fibers. The long of this story is that the shipyard disallowed the mechanics from using come-a-longs, wire rope, shackels etc. Only the rigger shop is now allowed to use rigging equipment. The theory is they have the formal training, and load tested equipment. Someone probably tied to the wrong place and bent or damaged equipment. Now everyone else does things the hard way, as the saying goes "You wanna do it the easy way or you wanna do it the HE-MAN way (joke)". We use a lot of straps because we tie to ships equipment and unless it is a padeye some things can be damaged/nicked with wire rope etc. I do have a come-a-long that I use sparingly with straps. Yes it is not really allowed but since my job is to assist the shipsforce with troubleshooting and repair (as opposed to shipyard doing the repair) I cover myself by saying it is shipsforce equipment we are using.Those are the only times I am extra careful about straps breaking and I do take precautions such as using hold backs in case the main strap breaks. The knots can get really tight when you use chain falls to move equipment. Even in these instances there is hardly any lifting situations. I am still glad I brought this up because based on your response most of you have never seen it. Even in the shipyard I hardly see this done. But you gotta try it to see what I am talking about. I have never been unable to untie a knot using this method even after I use a come a long pulling 1/2 ton (max rating). I do thank all of you for your response. At least I got a thread going.

17th May 2007, 10:54 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Interesting We just had a similar over ride on a crane job ... the guy with the doggers ticket took control and done it his way which wasn't as good as our way. Tickets for everything is the way it's going, but it's hard to find places to get those tickets in some cases. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

22nd May 2007, 01:21 AM	#11 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	ggg, got any pics of ya work place or do you have to keep it secret? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

14th December 2007, 01:42 AM	#13 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Re: untying a jammed knot I know what he means about knots in straps. I used to use a ton of 1" tubular webbing for all my straps. If they don't come loose on you early on, then they tend to jam down pretty tight even on just bodyweight. I've got some older straps that I don't use anymore, but still have their knots tied. I'll give this a try and see if it works. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

14th December 2007, 01:59 PM	#15 (permalink)
George Hayduke Banned Join Date: May 2007 Location: Slickrock, USA Posts: 93	Re: untying a jammed knot Using something like a smooth pipe or tapered branch as a fid in the knot will make it much easier to untie. All you have to do is figure out where the highest load will be in the knot, slip in the fid and reef away. Pound out or cut off the fid and the knot has some air inside to allow it to be broken open. A biner with a no-hook nose works well for smaller diameter cordage and webbing. Shackle pins work too but be careful of the threads. Having a turner make up some fids out of brass or dense wood would be the coolest tool to have. Find some old fids in the splicing loft.