Types of Biners you use.

Bermy

TM, I actually have a quad lock, it's on my lanyard...
I still feel fine with the triple lock as my main life support, the only way its going to open accidentally is by chafing on a branch...and even then its 50/50when sliding past that the gate is on the chafe side...
Five years climbing, this is the first time I've seen it happen.

Risk assessment is a big part of what we do...assess the risk, take appropriate action/implement control measures to reduce the risk to an acceptable level...notice I never said REMOVE the risk, risk is inherent, its how you manage it that counts!

Ta ta

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Therrin

Hey guys thanks for keeping this one up and running,

I don't think any biner is "fool proof", because there are fools out there who *will* screw it up.

Even quad-locks with sap in them will snap "closed" without locking. But, I think you pointed out a great alternative to the reason the triple lockers "fail" in my videos. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm being pretty harsh, purposely, on autos, but in retrospect, I've NEVER had a screw-lock "fail" on me from how it's supposed to work, unless it's something *I* did (like not screwing it closed)

I've been climbing with the triples solely for my life-safe gear for several weeks now and they really don't bother me, but I never trust them to lock when they shut, always check them. I've got 2 which are temp out of service because they don't lock when they shut, one is brand new. The pine sap is real hell on them, but with a little cleaning they should be fine.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Bermy!! Good one!

Tree Machine

That bit about triple locks not being safe for life support, I was just being facicious. Wasn't implying anything toward anybody.


I use screwlockers, triple-lockers, the mighty mouse triple-locker, non-lockers directed opposite, gates opposed. I even have a DMM big Dan steel what they call a Quad-lock, but it's like any triple lock, IMO.


I just wanted to open this discussion into the quad-lock arena. I have been looking long for an ideal quadlock, and continue the search. Let's say there's not a lot to choose from.


Bermy? What is the name of your quadlock, and who is it by. What distinguishes it from a triple? And is is steel or aluminum, what shape, style and gate design is it? Nose style? Bent or straight spine? Can you show us a pic or a link?

I am very much intrigued with the exceedingly rare quad-lock.





And please, somebody make me eat my words on that term 'exceedingly rare'. Maybe they're not so rare. Bring forth the world's quad-locks.

Bermy

Whew, ok...I thought you might have been being sarcastic!

Quad lock:
I got it at the DMM factory in Wales after a tour, its aluminium, has a purple twist gate. Straight spine, dead plain really.

It has an extra motion at the beginning...turn, then push, turn, open.

I'll photograph it tomorrow. Stay tuned!

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newguy18

Sounds like it might be a hassle in a tight spot.

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Bermy

Here is the picture of my quad lock on my lanyard, with a regular triple lock next to it for comparison:

It is actually an ISC...(ISC/DMM were started by the same chap) I got it in 2004.

Newguy18, I have it on the lanyard for just that reason, it doesn't get opened very much at all, mind you, the action is quite smooth when I do have to open it, not as tricky as you might think.

Attached Thumbnails

 

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Aerial

Great thread, a real eye opener for a rookie. The videos are great work!

I voted auto locking for rigging as the SALA SRL has one on it, but after voting I don't think it's a 'biner at all, (if it is, it's a great big one).

And screw locking for climbing since I bought two steel screw locking 'biners for my gear. (30 kN)

Now I find out that I am operating out of code if I use them, yet the videos seem to suggest that they might be safer in tree work. That makes it a pretty hard choice for me.

Aerial

Therrin

Aerial,

I suffered a bit of headache over this thread (or more so, the topic).

If the thing on your SALA "looks" like a normal autolocking biner, but it's bigger... it just might be one. Can you post a picture of it up in here? It certainly fits for this thread, and I'd like to see it.

However, it might be more of a auto-locking snap hook. That's a device which you have to squeeze a lever on the back side of in order to open the gate for the hook on the front side. They're very common with work positioning lanyards and fall arrest in other industries.


As far as the screw locking biners go. If you're using auto's for rigging, and screwlocks for climbing... You're doin it backwards. If you read this thread from start to finish you'll see that I used screw-locks for climbing and either for rigging, and it's been a long road to trudge trying to convince anyone that it's an acceptable practice (mainly... because its not )

(if you tell people that you're using your previous rigging auto's for your climbing now, you'll catch hell for it. Biners which have been used for rigging should NEVER be used for climbing)

Jury's still out on whether I'll be contacting ANSI to complain about the screw-lockers. They're a big bureacratic machine, and I don't have the energy to fuss about it. It irks me that there are people writing rules for our industry who probably have never BEEN in a tree though. I'm pretty sure that should invalidate any opinion they have.

At the end, the most that you can really pull from this thread, in my opinion, is what Bermy said about evaluating risk. That goes hand in hand with never trusting that your auto's have closed themselves though. Make a habit of always checking and it will become routine.

Biner's are a good place to start, but I'm sure it's the least of your worries as far as operating out of code. Make sure you've got your PPE in place when you operate too.





Oh yes, make sure when you are making your gear inspections that you don't forget to pull all the line out of that SALA SLR gadget you insist on using, and checking it thoroughly for wear.

Aerial

I'm multitasking right now so can't post more but here's the photos:





Comments or instruction on the use of each item are welcomed.

Aerial

newguy18

hey I thought you weren't suppose to say biner.

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Aerial

Here's the SALA unit up close:



Starting from left to right in the first photo I posted above this one:

Steel threaded locker, I bought two of these to use for tree work (30 kN)

Fancy AU threaded locker - this one's my wife's key holder she thinks it's pretty so she got took it to be her keyring. (25 kN)

Nice forged AU non-locker - This is my keyring, it has no shoulders on the clasp to snag my jeans belt loop when pulling of for use. (23 kN)

I don't intend to climb anything with the second two, I would with the wife's perhaps, but she wouldn't want me to scratch it up.

Aerial

Aerial

Starting from left to right in this photo:

Steel threaded locker, I bought two of these to use for tree work (30 kN)

Fancy AU threaded locker - this one's my wife's key holder she thinks it's pretty so she took it to be her keyring. (25 kN)

Nice forged AU non-locker - This is my keyring, it has no shoulders on the clasp to snag my jeans belt loop when pulling of for use. (23 kN)

I don't intend to climb anything with the second two, I would with the wife's perhaps, but she wouldn't want me to scratch it up.

Aerial

Aerial

I just bought four of these from eBAY:



I hope that these are what I should be using. Comments on their use would be appreciated.

Aerial

Aerial

I just bought this on eBay for $87.77 :



Is that a good price on this gear?

Aerial

newguy18

Those carabiners are what your suppose to use,why did you buy the portawrap?you need to master basic tree climbing and then be taught proper rigging.Proper training doesn't come from watching videos either.

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arborjockey

Mr.Aerial

The big steel biner is used for arial steel work mostly. The gate is large so it can fit around angle iron. In the tree industry I use it for rigging attachments on the ground. I haven't been in the industry long but the lowering device you got on ebay was over pricedsorry Its been outdated by the portawrap. Get a sherill catalog it will have what you need for tree work. My idea would be to put that fall arest stuff, the rope grab (its not the style of rope grab you want) the lowering device and put it on ebay to make up $. keep the biners

Therrin

I've gotta agree with ArborJockey on that stuff.

And besides that, selling gear on Ebay is cool, but don't BUY your biners and such there!!! Buy NEW!! I bought a saw on Ebay, but that's another story, and it's workin beautifully, but I had to put almost $150 into it to get it there.

If you're buying safety equipment on Ebay, you don't know it's history. If you've got the money (and you must, if you bought that reel thing), buy your gear new and start fresh.


Somehow you posted three redundant posts. You can click "edit" and delete the ones which are unnecessary.

Are the black locking gates on those red biners plastic or metal? I'd be inclined to shy away from plastic biner components.

And I can't blame your wife, that's a pretty keyring alright!

The HUGE autolocker is also used with ladder rungs.


(NG, the "biner" thing is only up at that conference center. Incidentally, I don't think I'll ever be able to stop saying "biner"... it just rolls off the tongue so easily!)


To you other folks, say, are auto-locking snaps allowable as far as the standards go? They type that's attatched to Aerial's fall-arresting lanyard.
Seems they should be, since they take a scissor type squeezing action to open both mechanisms.
Maybe Danny knows?

newguy18

yes therrin those rope snaps are suitable for life support but i don't like them,they tend to be hard to grasp in a tight situation and they can trip open by themselves pretty easily.personally i'd feel safer on a non locking biner.

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Therrin

Oh I'm familiar with them. I had a lanyard for a while that had them on the ends. Once it got too beat up I cut it up but I saved the snaps.

Just wasn't sure if they conformed to the standards. Did you look it up in ANSI NG or are you just guessing? (and I mean for TREE WORKER standards...not normal fall arresting)

newguy18

look in any arbo catolgue,they say these rope snaps meet ansi standards for life support.they're exceptable but i won't be caught dead with one again.

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Therrin

Perhaps it was your technique, and not the gear that is to blame?


See, if we had a chatroom we could argue about this all night long without filling up precious thread space. Damn!


Quad's still sittin here. Still baroque =(

newguy18

I still haven't finished mine either,been way too busy.I know a place with a chatroom but won't list it here out of respect for ekka.I you want to go give me an email.

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Aerial

The lowering device is a portawrap, it must be an older version, (but still unused). I've seen the newer ones too, but this one seemed less complicated to me. I bought the thing to save wear on my new ropes.

Is that older portawrap appropriate for a ground man to use as a belaying device to back me up during a climb?

The rope grab is a Miller unit that came with my Miller "duraflex" fullbody safety harness. The traditional rope method, blakes hitch with small pulley to advance it, seems to be the way to go. I've got to practice on tying that and using it until I am comfortable with it.

And sorry about the redundant posts. Maybe Ekka can delete them for me. I seem to have lost my edit prividledges. I was trying to do to many things at once and made stupid mistakes (like posting the wrong picture).

Aerial

Eric Frei

I deleted one but give me the post number of the extra ones you want deleted?

You can belay off that device but .... there's easier ways.

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Aerial

Post #131 with the wrong picture is redundant if you would please delete it it would be appreciated.

Well, I know I can have my ground man just wrap the rope around a tree to belay me, but I figure that eventually it will be used to lower limbs and control the fall of trunk sections.

Just so you and the rest of the members know what I'm up to, that first disaster at removing a tree for pay was to help a friend complete a contract for it's removal. We declined to remove the third tree, and gave the client the name of hopefully more qualified tree remover.

I have plenty of trees to practice on around here, and one great big nasty tree of my own to remove. I'm either going to hire the guy we recommended to our first and only customer, or bring in a bucket truck, probably both.

I'm not seeking work in this profession, other than possibly as an apprentice and brush hauler / chipper operator. At this point I am a recreational tree climber and wanna be arborist.

Exposure to professionals here at this site has given me new respect for the profession and although I have the means to outfit myself with the proper gear (as I discover just what that is), I also have a far greater understanding of just how far away I am from it's proper use.

I'm gonna work on that, hopefully with the help and guidance of all those who post here. Consider me humbled by my experience thus far.

Aerial

newguy18

Here is a list of absolute basics for starting and nothing more.


120' climbing rope
work positing harness
2 flip lines
set of climbing spurs with tree gaffs
helmet
saftey glassess

You can get climbing kits here.
WesSpur Tree Equipment Homepage

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Aerial

120' climbing rope - I've got two 60's (I'm starting out low)
work positing harness - Check, a nice Miller, to which I added leg straps.
2 flip lines - I'm ordering a real flipline from WesSpur
climbing spurs with tree gaffs - Check, nice aluminum Bashlins
helmet - Got two, one with hearing proctection and shield
saftey glassess - Check, never leave home without them

Seems you left out the lifeline, and method of attachment. I'm working on setting up the traditional lifeline as outlined elsewhere on this site. Adding the small arborist pully to advance it easily is my goal.

I do have the Miller rope grab that I can use until I feel I have mastered the Blake knotted system.

Here is the flipline kit from WesSpur I am considering:



Aerial

sawsong

I dont think he did leave out the lifeline... or else perhaps he's carrying that 120' of rope around just for fun

Aerial

Quite so, but no mention of a safety harness or method of tying in with it left me wondering if that was really all I needed as far as gear goes.

Aerial

newguy18

Your climb line is your life line.What i listed is the absolute nesscities for a begining climber.Nothing more.

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old schooler