Types of Biners you use.

Pro Nemus · 10th February 2008, 01:47 PM

These are primarily what I use for climbing. The swivel is particularly useful.

Therrin · 10th February 2008, 03:10 PM

TM, I've no trouble with being complimented on my fine rack

All my cams, and hex's are hanging on the other side... pitty I didn't get an all inclusive shot.

Letigre,
Never heard of that before, but it sounds interesting. I'll file it away and give it a shot sometime. Have you noticed cracks using that method? Have any pictures?

Pro Nemus,
Nice biners for your setup. Whats the kN rating of the swivel? I've been looking at the ball-locks more. I'm stuck between thinking "gee that's simple, how cool" and "uhoh, one more thing to fail". How long have you been using them and what's your take on that?

Pro Nemus · 10th February 2008, 03:28 PM

The swivel biner is rated to 24kn. The locking feature takes a little practice to get used to, but its worth the effort.

I've had three of the ball locks since fall 2006, and they're pretty nice. Rated a 26kn, theyre still not as strong as a nice steel biner; however, they are very lightweight and easy to operate, even with insulated/waterproof gloves on.

Petzl had a recall on these last year, and I went through and checked mine to make sure they were functioning properly. Although I found everything to be ok, I still debated whether or not to try exchanging them for a different style. In the end, our season got started early and I never set aside the time to deal with it.

Now, I'm looking forward to purchasing another batch this year, and I've become quite accustomed to the ease of use. So, unless something else catches my eye, I'll probably be buying more.

Therrin · 10th February 2008, 03:34 PM

What did Petzl state as the reason for recall????

Pro Nemus · 10th February 2008, 03:50 PM

The recall was due to the possibility that the sleeve could be unlocked without pressing the button, allowing the gate to be opened by just twisting. They told us to check the locking mechanism by twisting the sleeve firmly, but "not too forcefully", and that if it would twist and open to return it to the place of purchase.

arborjockey · 10th February 2008, 04:01 PM

Pro nemus Nice Biner I like the swivel a lot. Opens up some ideas for my climbing style.

TreeHumper · 11th February 2008, 08:41 AM

Standards are established in response to accidents and equipment failures. An imperfect science to be sure but one that leads to fewer accidents caused by failures of gear or process.

When accidents do occur then blame is allocated and action taken. Look at the case of the window washer that survived the fall in NYC. He is now suing the scaffolding co. and his employer. What do you think will arise from that?

Standards of practice are created for professionals to follow. If they are not then the professional is open to liability. Would you work in a building or live in a house where the engineers took as flippant an attitude as some arborists do towards the standards???

Therrin · 11th February 2008, 10:10 PM

Humper,

Most people aren't around when a house is being worked on, or aren't inspecting the work as it happens, and wouldn't know if that was the attitude. As long as the house get's built, they don't really care once it's finished.
Besides, here, most of the mexicans who come across and don't speak english end up doing all the work, and its REALLY hard to tell what their attitude is, let alone their ability to do the work. Doesn't keep most normal people from living in the house though.

As for biners, like I said about professional rock climbers, how many tens of thousandds of people climb with non-locking biners? Most of them. Occasionally there are deaths, but the climbing community as a whole understands that these are widely due to OPERATOR ERROR, and they don't run around creating standards which hinder the rest of climbers who are able to climb safely by not taking shortcuts.

TreeHumper · 12th February 2008, 08:41 AM

Home construction is inspected step by step. You pour footings, it's inspected, foundation, inspected. Walls can't be closed up until the work to be buried is inspected. Besides the specifications of the drawings are approved by the building dept within the jurisdiction the homes are being built in and the architect and engineers affix their stamp to the drawings thus accepting liability for any failures. To say the least, a large portion of the cost of a home is the oversight by the contractors and building dept to ensure that it is built to code.

Rock climbers aren't regulated to the same extent because it is a recreational sport. However, here is what is going on with respect to safety, UIAA - Safety
Where a facility can be held liable then there are definitely rules. Go to any climbing gym and check it out.

At the end of the day, if we act like cowboys then we will continue to be treated as such. When we act as professionals then perception will change.

George Hayduke · 12th February 2008, 01:41 PM

Micro fractures in biners is a myth. Don't believe me...ask google and all of the gear manufacturers. This dead horse has been beaten to a pulp let the thing stay buried ok?

The link for the studies is on my other computer, I'll put it up later.

Nonlockers are fine out of trees...different environments. IN trees ropes, climbers and tree parts move around and can jiggle things out of alignment leading to accidents. Accidents have happened, standards change and the world is a better place.

Ask your heirs if they will allow you to climb on non-lockers after they read the Z.

Therrin · 12th February 2008, 11:45 PM

Taken from "Understanding Carabiners":
Get Outdoors - Carabiners: Understanding Carabiners

Quote:

Remember that a carabiner that has fallen off a cliff onto a hard surface has probably suffered hairline fractures and should be retired. Resist using such a "treasure" found at the base of a climb. In fact, you should resist using any critical climbing equipment if you don't know its history. Ropes, harnesses, runners, carabiners, protection pieces, and belay devices are all vital links in your chain of protection. Secondhand equipment, whether found or passed along without an account of its use, increases the possibility of a weak link in the chain you depend on for safe climbing.

At the following link you can find the following quote:
Rock and Ice Forum // View topic - Hairline fractures in carabiners

Quote:

I'd retire any piece of gear dropped from half a pitch up or higher, and onto a hard surface. This is just a gut feeling, though. Most climbing gear is aluminum, and aluminum is ductile, and isn't prone to cracking. It will bend and ding, but getting it to crack from a simple drop is very difficult. Some (though rare) aluminum gear is cast. I have and still use a pair of Jumars from the early 1980s that are made of cast aluminum. Cast-metal gear is much more likely to fracture than forged gear. If I were to drop those jumars from higher than just a few feet, I'd replace them, something I should probably do anyway.

The trouble with dropped gear is that you never really know unless you either test it to destruction or get it x-rayed. Since neither option is especially practical, I recommend retiring any piece of equipment that was dropped and that you have the least bit of doubt about. Gear Guy has spoken!

Here's a site which tells how corrosion chemically affects 'biners, and how pitting occurs:
Aging Carabiners

And finally, here's a "mythbuster" thread,
which goes on to say, "well yeah, you should still check your gear, and it may be damaged actually, and there have been instances, and some types are more prone to it, etc etc..."

Myth#1

The Mythbuster part:

Quote:

Myth #1: You should replace a dropped carabiner because of undetectable "Micro-Fractures".

This is the biggest myth we know of, and was probably created by unscrupulous salesmen to get you to buy more carabiners.

Truth: In a test by Steve Nagode, an engineer at the REI quality
assurance laboratory, 30 carabiner bodies (half ovals, half D?s) were each dropped six times onto a concrete floor from a height of 33 feet. Following the drops, their open-gate strength was measured and compared to 30 control samples from the same production batch and which had not been dropped. The statistical result showed no loss
of strength.?

The strangely CYA immediate followup:

Quote:

Inspect any piece of dropped equipment carefully, checking for proper function. Cast metal products are most
vulnerable to damage, fractures and cracks. To my personal knowledge, this happened once to a gray cast Jumar Ascender in the 1970's. To my extensive knowledge: Drop forged carabiners (and similar gear) have not exhibited this problem.

Note: OEM Petzl says: 1mm of wear or gouge is serious enough wear or damage to require replacement.

Some mythbuster that is ....

George, do you have anything against people who wish to check their gear ANYWAY? JUST INCASE?
Besides, why suggest AGAINST people being extra cautious? Why do you care? If people want to check for fracture/corrosion/pitting.... whether it is present or not, that's pretty much up to them.

At the end of the day you have to climb on the gear that you own, be as safety conscious as you wish and as you're comfortable with, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

TreeHumper · 13th February 2008, 09:54 AM

"Ask your heirs if they will allow you to climb on non-lockers after they read the Z."

When I see unsafe work practices by new employees I would always ask them if they would do that with their spouse, gf, mother or kids watching. We impose a burden on them and on society when we work outside of standards that are meant to reduce the inherent risk.

While I was walking down 8th ave in NYC last night I passed a sign on the hoarding at a construction site that read, "to report unsafe work conditions on this site anonymously, call 311". This was also posted in spanish. Workplace safety is an ongoing process that calls for participation by all concerned to reduce the loss of life and disability. Financially it would reduce the cost of WC and enforcement.

Therrin · 14th February 2008, 12:15 AM

I wasn't suggesting Arb work using non-locking carabiners, guys.

The POINT (obviously missed) is that you can be perfectly safe using already tried and true methods. Although I don't mind switching to auto-locking biners, It is MY OPINION that you can climb perfectly safely using screw locking biners.

How many climbers have climbed for how many years using screw-locks only?

How many climbers died through not screwing their biner's closed?

What happens, in the next couple years, if climbers get complacent because their biner's "auto-lock", decide they don't need to be regularly assessed, and people start falling out of trees because their "auto locking" biner's gates got jammed, didn't lock, they assumed it had, and then they fall?

What's next, biner's that emit lights and sirens when not locked properly? Give me a break. This is a perfect example of a select few climbers who were rushing / not checking their gear / not using their gear properly / etc etc, and they paid the ultimate consequence for it. Doesn't mean that gear *can't* be used properly, perfectly safely, with no worries.

Ekka · 14th February 2008, 01:49 AM

I think with the dropping thing, steel vs alloy etc that it depends ont he way it was made, forged vs cast or something and there's different types of alloy too.

It's not a black and white case. And I read somewhere to an excellent piece on it froma metalurgist who did a lot of tests.

The problem is the average person cant tell what sort of biner he has anymore, like composition, we got carbon graphite hybrids now etc.

Anyway, I'm certain I read that the alloys aren't that bad with regard to fracture as people make out. And that the old it's OK to drop steel was actually incorrect and the steel biners had the troubles.

But, darned if I can find that report and also, it depends on the biner composition.

Anyway, just my 0.02 and I climb all steel and that could be a false sense of security but my biners are 50kn.

Therrin · 14th February 2008, 01:54 AM

Ekka,

you haven't jumped up to the 72kN's that I showed you a couple month's ago yet??

But yes, with what you're saying, there simply isn't a good reason *not* to check biner's for cracks if you feel led to do so, guys.

TreeHumper · 14th February 2008, 09:23 AM

I'm sure the manufacturers are in R&D for the next generation of biner that will overcome some of the issues of complacency. How, I've no idea. Like every other tool device that we rely on for our safety and security in the daily course of conduction business companies strive to create the next big thing that will give them a competitive edge. Foolproof security is one of those edges.

View Poll Results: What types of carabiners do you use for climbing and rigging, you are allowed 2 votes
Climb with auto locking biner	55	75.34%
Climb with screw gate biner	7	9.59%
Climb with either, doesn't matter to me	11	15.07%
Rig with auto locking biner	16	21.92%
Rig with screw gate biner	22	30.14%
Rig with either, doesn't matter to me	22	30.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

10th February 2008, 01:47 PM	#51 (permalink)
Pro Nemus Gettin' motoring Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 39	Re: Types of Biners you use. These are primarily what I use for climbing. The swivel is particularly useful.

10th February 2008, 03:10 PM	#52 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: Types of Biners you use. TM, I've no trouble with being complimented on my fine rack All my cams, and hex's are hanging on the other side... pitty I didn't get an all inclusive shot. Letigre, Never heard of that before, but it sounds interesting. I'll file it away and give it a shot sometime. Have you noticed cracks using that method? Have any pictures? Pro Nemus, Nice biners for your setup. Whats the kN rating of the swivel? I've been looking at the ball-locks more. I'm stuck between thinking "gee that's simple, how cool" and "uhoh, one more thing to fail". How long have you been using them and what's your take on that? __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

10th February 2008, 03:28 PM	#53 (permalink)
Pro Nemus Gettin' motoring Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 39	Re: Types of Biners you use. The swivel biner is rated to 24kn. The locking feature takes a little practice to get used to, but its worth the effort. I've had three of the ball locks since fall 2006, and they're pretty nice. Rated a 26kn, theyre still not as strong as a nice steel biner; however, they are very lightweight and easy to operate, even with insulated/waterproof gloves on. Petzl had a recall on these last year, and I went through and checked mine to make sure they were functioning properly. Although I found everything to be ok, I still debated whether or not to try exchanging them for a different style. In the end, our season got started early and I never set aside the time to deal with it. Now, I'm looking forward to purchasing another batch this year, and I've become quite accustomed to the ease of use. So, unless something else catches my eye, I'll probably be buying more.

10th February 2008, 03:34 PM	#54 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: Types of Biners you use. What did Petzl state as the reason for recall???? __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

10th February 2008, 03:50 PM	#55 (permalink)
Pro Nemus Gettin' motoring Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 39	Re: Types of Biners you use. The recall was due to the possibility that the sleeve could be unlocked without pressing the button, allowing the gate to be opened by just twisting. They told us to check the locking mechanism by twisting the sleeve firmly, but "not too forcefully", and that if it would twist and open to return it to the place of purchase.

10th February 2008, 04:01 PM	#56 (permalink)
arborjockey Fly'n Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: hawaii. ohio. oregon. california Posts: 118	Re: Types of Biners you use. Pro nemus Nice Biner I like the swivel a lot. Opens up some ideas for my climbing style.

11th February 2008, 08:41 AM	#57 (permalink)
TreeHumper Gettin' motoring Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15	Re: Types of Biners you use. Standards are established in response to accidents and equipment failures. An imperfect science to be sure but one that leads to fewer accidents caused by failures of gear or process. When accidents do occur then blame is allocated and action taken. Look at the case of the window washer that survived the fall in NYC. He is now suing the scaffolding co. and his employer. What do you think will arise from that? Standards of practice are created for professionals to follow. If they are not then the professional is open to liability. Would you work in a building or live in a house where the engineers took as flippant an attitude as some arborists do towards the standards???

11th February 2008, 10:10 PM	#58 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: Types of Biners you use. Humper, Most people aren't around when a house is being worked on, or aren't inspecting the work as it happens, and wouldn't know if that was the attitude. As long as the house get's built, they don't really care once it's finished. Besides, here, most of the mexicans who come across and don't speak english end up doing all the work, and its REALLY hard to tell what their attitude is, let alone their ability to do the work. Doesn't keep most normal people from living in the house though. As for biners, like I said about professional rock climbers, how many tens of thousandds of people climb with non-locking biners? Most of them. Occasionally there are deaths, but the climbing community as a whole understands that these are widely due to OPERATOR ERROR, and they don't run around creating standards which hinder the rest of climbers who are able to climb safely by not taking shortcuts.

12th February 2008, 08:41 AM	#59 (permalink)
TreeHumper Gettin' motoring Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15	Re: Types of Biners you use. Home construction is inspected step by step. You pour footings, it's inspected, foundation, inspected. Walls can't be closed up until the work to be buried is inspected. Besides the specifications of the drawings are approved by the building dept within the jurisdiction the homes are being built in and the architect and engineers affix their stamp to the drawings thus accepting liability for any failures. To say the least, a large portion of the cost of a home is the oversight by the contractors and building dept to ensure that it is built to code. Rock climbers aren't regulated to the same extent because it is a recreational sport. However, here is what is going on with respect to safety, UIAA - Safety Where a facility can be held liable then there are definitely rules. Go to any climbing gym and check it out. At the end of the day, if we act like cowboys then we will continue to be treated as such. When we act as professionals then perception will change.

12th February 2008, 01:41 PM	#60 (permalink)
George Hayduke Banned Join Date: May 2007 Location: Slickrock, USA Posts: 93	Re: Types of Biners you use. Micro fractures in biners is a myth. Don't believe me...ask google and all of the gear manufacturers. This dead horse has been beaten to a pulp let the thing stay buried ok? The link for the studies is on my other computer, I'll put it up later. Nonlockers are fine out of trees...different environments. IN trees ropes, climbers and tree parts move around and can jiggle things out of alignment leading to accidents. Accidents have happened, standards change and the world is a better place. Ask your heirs if they will allow you to climb on non-lockers after they read the Z.

13th February 2008, 09:54 AM	#62 (permalink)
TreeHumper Gettin' motoring Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15	Re: Types of Biners you use. "Ask your heirs if they will allow you to climb on non-lockers after they read the Z." When I see unsafe work practices by new employees I would always ask them if they would do that with their spouse, gf, mother or kids watching. We impose a burden on them and on society when we work outside of standards that are meant to reduce the inherent risk. While I was walking down 8th ave in NYC last night I passed a sign on the hoarding at a construction site that read, "to report unsafe work conditions on this site anonymously, call 311". This was also posted in spanish. Workplace safety is an ongoing process that calls for participation by all concerned to reduce the loss of life and disability. Financially it would reduce the cost of WC and enforcement.

14th February 2008, 12:15 AM	#63 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: Types of Biners you use. I wasn't suggesting Arb work using non-locking carabiners, guys. The POINT (obviously missed) is that you can be perfectly safe using already tried and true methods. Although I don't mind switching to auto-locking biners, It is MY OPINION that you can climb perfectly safely using screw locking biners. How many climbers have climbed for how many years using screw-locks only? How many climbers died through not screwing their biner's closed? What happens, in the next couple years, if climbers get complacent because their biner's "auto-lock", decide they don't need to be regularly assessed, and people start falling out of trees because their "auto locking" biner's gates got jammed, didn't lock, they assumed it had, and then they fall? What's next, biner's that emit lights and sirens when not locked properly? Give me a break. This is a perfect example of a select few climbers who were rushing / not checking their gear / not using their gear properly / etc etc, and they paid the ultimate consequence for it. Doesn't mean that gear can't be used properly, perfectly safely, with no worries.

14th February 2008, 01:49 AM	#64 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,664	Re: Types of Biners you use. I think with the dropping thing, steel vs alloy etc that it depends ont he way it was made, forged vs cast or something and there's different types of alloy too. It's not a black and white case. And I read somewhere to an excellent piece on it froma metalurgist who did a lot of tests. The problem is the average person cant tell what sort of biner he has anymore, like composition, we got carbon graphite hybrids now etc. Anyway, I'm certain I read that the alloys aren't that bad with regard to fracture as people make out. And that the old it's OK to drop steel was actually incorrect and the steel biners had the troubles. But, darned if I can find that report and also, it depends on the biner composition. Anyway, just my 0.02 and I climb all steel and that could be a false sense of security but my biners are 50kn. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

14th February 2008, 01:54 AM	#65 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: Types of Biners you use. Ekka, you haven't jumped up to the 72kN's that I showed you a couple month's ago yet?? But yes, with what you're saying, there simply isn't a good reason not to check biner's for cracks if you feel led to do so, guys.

14th February 2008, 09:23 AM	#66 (permalink)
TreeHumper Gettin' motoring Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 15	Re: Types of Biners you use. I'm sure the manufacturers are in R&D for the next generation of biner that will overcome some of the issues of complacency. How, I've no idea. Like every other tool device that we rely on for our safety and security in the daily course of conduction business companies strive to create the next big thing that will give them a competitive edge. Foolproof security is one of those edges.