Types of Biners you use.

Therrin

Taken from "Understanding Carabiners":
Get Outdoors - Carabiners: Understanding Carabiners


At the following link you can find the following quote:
Rock and Ice Forum // View topic - Hairline fractures in carabiners

Here's a site which tells how corrosion chemically affects 'biners, and how pitting occurs:
Aging Carabiners

And finally, here's a "mythbuster" thread,
which goes on to say, "well yeah, you should still check your gear, and it may be damaged actually, and there have been instances, and some types are more prone to it, etc etc..."
Myth#1

The Mythbuster part:
The strangely CYA immediate followup:
Some mythbuster that is ....


George, do you have anything against people who wish to check their gear ANYWAY? JUST INCASE?
Besides, why suggest AGAINST people being extra cautious? Why do you care? If people want to check for fracture/corrosion/pitting.... whether it is present or not, that's pretty much up to them.

At the end of the day you have to climb on the gear that you own, be as safety conscious as you wish and as you're comfortable with, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

__________________

Stihls: 200T, 011, 028, 260p, 361, 660

Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a moment, but light him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

TreeHumper

"Ask your heirs if they will allow you to climb on non-lockers after they read the Z."

When I see unsafe work practices by new employees I would always ask them if they would do that with their spouse, gf, mother or kids watching. We impose a burden on them and on society when we work outside of standards that are meant to reduce the inherent risk.

While I was walking down 8th ave in NYC last night I passed a sign on the hoarding at a construction site that read, "to report unsafe work conditions on this site anonymously, call 311". This was also posted in spanish. Workplace safety is an ongoing process that calls for participation by all concerned to reduce the loss of life and disability. Financially it would reduce the cost of WC and enforcement.

Therrin

I wasn't suggesting Arb work using non-locking carabiners, guys.

The POINT (obviously missed) is that you can be perfectly safe using already tried and true methods. Although I don't mind switching to auto-locking biners, It is MY OPINION that you can climb perfectly safely using screw locking biners.

How many climbers have climbed for how many years using screw-locks only?

How many climbers died through not screwing their biner's closed?

What happens, in the next couple years, if climbers get complacent because their biner's "auto-lock", decide they don't need to be regularly assessed, and people start falling out of trees because their "auto locking" biner's gates got jammed, didn't lock, they assumed it had, and then they fall?

What's next, biner's that emit lights and sirens when not locked properly? Give me a break. This is a perfect example of a select few climbers who were rushing / not checking their gear / not using their gear properly / etc etc, and they paid the ultimate consequence for it. Doesn't mean that gear *can't* be used properly, perfectly safely, with no worries.

__________________

Stihls: 200T, 011, 028, 260p, 361, 660

Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a moment, but light him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Ekka

I think with the dropping thing, steel vs alloy etc that it depends ont he way it was made, forged vs cast or something and there's different types of alloy too.

It's not a black and white case. And I read somewhere to an excellent piece on it froma metalurgist who did a lot of tests.

The problem is the average person cant tell what sort of biner he has anymore, like composition, we got carbon graphite hybrids now etc.

Anyway, I'm certain I read that the alloys aren't that bad with regard to fracture as people make out. And that the old it's OK to drop steel was actually incorrect and the steel biners had the troubles.

But, darned if I can find that report and also, it depends on the biner composition.

Anyway, just my 0.02 and I climb all steel and that could be a false sense of security but my biners are 50kn.

__________________



Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google
Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping | Stump Grinding Brisbane
Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports | Project Arborist

Therrin

Ekka,

you haven't jumped up to the 72kN's that I showed you a couple month's ago yet??


But yes, with what you're saying, there simply isn't a good reason *not* to check biner's for cracks if you feel led to do so, guys.

__________________

Stihls: 200T, 011, 028, 260p, 361, 660

Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a moment, but light him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

TreeHumper

I'm sure the manufacturers are in R&D for the next generation of biner that will overcome some of the issues of complacency. How, I've no idea. Like every other tool device that we rely on for our safety and security in the daily course of conduction business companies strive to create the next big thing that will give them a competitive edge. Foolproof security is one of those edges.

newguy18

Theres no such thing as fool proof security with biners or snaps.even quad locking biners can fail.

__________________
Have your say join us today.

I ship USA saws out of the USA

old schooler

Therrin

Humper,
this is true, but to what end? Why can't we just learn to use the gear we already have, and practice safe use without changing our standards whenever a select group of people decide to ignore the rules?



Arrrrr!

__________________

Stihls: 200T, 011, 028, 260p, 361, 660

Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a moment, but light him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Ekka

I notice the new Kong 50Kn steel twist locks changed the gate mechanism profile again.

I liked the chunky rhomboid shaped ones but maybe they were more likely to open with a rope rubbing/twisting around them?

Anyway, they're sort of more round now.

__________________



Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google
Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping | Stump Grinding Brisbane
Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports | Project Arborist

fatdog

Yea! You talk about a bad day at work.That is having OSHA come out and spend
the day or two with you!
Fatdog

TreeDimensional

A friend of mine owns a small company a hundred and twenty miles down the road. It just so happens the area office of the OH&S (Occupational Health and Safety-Canadian equivalent to OSHA) is in his home town. He had a inspector drive by and came back. He immediately though "here goes". Said inspector watched from a distance for a while and then approached him.

Introductions were exchanged, and finally the inspector commented on the efficiency of the crew. Nothing else was said and the inspector left. A few days later the owner received a letter in the mail, thanking my friend for the enlightenment into proper safety on the site.

Where we conduct business, the odds of seeing an inspector are slim-to-none. Is this an excuse to ignore the regulations. NO. I feel that the regs. are written to promote safety, I consider some of the rules to be over-kill, but then I see other people working and am reminded that not all tree workers are the sharpest tools in the shed.

As we work in the rural areas, we have had to develop contingency plans in case we have an accident. This has even impacted the types of equipment we have on the job site. The rural fire departments haven't and won't train in high angle rescue. There is really no need for them to here, all buildings are 3 stories or less, and cliffs and gullies are things we take vacations to go see.

My point is, you have to look out for the safety of your own people. Some government piece of paper is insignificant when a co-worker is unconscious in a tree. The rules are written for the safety of the whole, not a few.

dannyboysfc

Had a double locker open up on me today, my fault though I think. I was gettting ready to start my way up the tree using the modified footlock(basically DdRT using a split tail with the blakes tied far away from my saddle). I had taken my micro pulley off of the rope for the time and decided I could just clip it onto one of the two biners that were clipped to my sliding D and let it ride there untill I needed it. Anyway, once I got to my destination I flipped in to the tree to set the climbing line higher, that is when I noticed that the micro pulley had somehow opened up one of the biners and was partially jammed inside of the gate.

I promptly removed the pullley and deciced not to do that anymore.

TreeHumper

Exactly my point Treedimensional.

When I went into NYC again there on the pixel board in Times Square was a news item about a NYC Builder being fined $464,000 for safety violations! That is how serious it is taken. We're lucky that there is not the focus on our industry as there is in others. We're being given the opportunity, in effect, to self-regulate to established standards. If we do, then we shine as professionals. If we don't then we reinforce a negative stereotype.

arborjockey

I've noticed that with the older platic gate on the petzal beaners. I like to keep mine dry and slightly lubed. No grease. NO wd 40 or silicone. Blow them out with compressed air then a little graphite. I did like the plastic gate it was easy to open but were to fragil. I broke 2. The new metal ones dont have issues closing on me yet thier hard to open. Oh well. How far down do you guys let your beaners wear down until you toss them out? I hear rock climbers use them 5- climbs then toss them.

Therrin

I can't say I've ever heard of rock climbers only using their biners "5 times" then tossing them.
Any idea how expensive that would be???

When I see any significant wear on mine, any noticeable thinning of diameter, then I replace them.

__________________

Stihls: 200T, 011, 028, 260p, 361, 660

Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a moment, but light him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Tree Machine

Yet, our death and injury rate is far higher than in most other industries. I could provide links to hundreds upon hundreds of written, documented cases.


I don't know why we're given this relaxed focus when guys are dropping out of trees and killing themselves ON AN ALMOST DAILY BASIS. On a construction jobsite, if OSHA sees a crack in your electrical cord, one guy without his helmet on, they can be fined.

Personally, I like not having compulsory regulations, just serve up the guidelines and I will use that as the standard, voluntarily. But many ignore standards, and probably a great many more are not even aware of what the standards ARE.

Back to the guys falling out of trees, it is sometimes difficult to know exactly what was going on the seconds before the fall, but I have yet to read where a triple-lock steel or Aluminum biner has ever been to blame.

(my impression was, mostly, worn cordage and poorly or improperly tied knots)

newguy18

one of my falls from rec climbing came from not taking a couple seconds to tie in with my flip line before recrotching my climb line,needless to say i do it now because i don't want to fall a third time.

__________________
Have your say join us today.

I ship USA saws out of the USA

old schooler

Tree Machine

Tits.

newguy18

Tie in twice stupid?

__________________
Have your say join us today.

I ship USA saws out of the USA

old schooler

Tree Machine

No, I was just thinking about female breasts right at that moment.

That's the strategy, aloft, newguy. You're either about to do a redirect, a re-route or cut of some sort of cut. Think to yourself, "Breasts".
Amidst this soothing thought, go ahead and apply a second, independent source of attachment to the tree.

Like the old saying goes, Think boobs, do aasisoattt.


But amidst the professional tree climbing community, we all have a social, subconscious understanding of these silent, breasulatory moments while in the tree because deep down, we ALL want to go home safely every night to a cozy pair.

If you are not thinking about golden hooters while in the tree, you are less likely to flipline in. That's just all there is to it.

This is the original rendering of the legend of TITS on tree jobsites, and how mammarys help keep us safe while in the tree.

Sorry. I digress.

Ok, back to caribiners

newguy18

oh thats my problem i'm way to busy to think about that stuff anymore.AT any given moment i got about 50 things running through my head.

__________________
Have your say join us today.

I ship USA saws out of the USA

old schooler

Tree Machine

Well, if you had 50 caribiners in front of ya, we'd have a good conversation.


Here's part of the right side D setup. This Petzl twistlock has been out of production for almost ten years. It's smallness allowed me to clip it in behind the D opening, sparing the D for other connection purposes. I dropped the Kong mini steel non-locker (9 Kn) in captive fashion because it takes up nil room and adds a great deal of benefit. The D itself still remains open to other connection possibilities.

Attached Thumbnails

 

Tree Machine

This is the attachment for my chainsaw lanyard, a semi-permanent attachment. The threads were doused with threadlock way back when, and it takes tools to wrench it off.

It only comes off during upgrades to the chainsaw lanyard. This little biner, because it is the atachment for the chainsaw lanyard, has gotten more use than any other biner I own. It needs to retire, or be put out to stud or proper burial or whatever. It has served me tirelessly and to utter perfection.

Attached Thumbnails

 

Therrin

TM that was hillarious!

__________________

Stihls: 200T, 011, 028, 260p, 361, 660

Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a moment, but light him on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

playfordtree

Theres nothing like using a sexual analogy to get a guys attention.

Does that mean it's only gay climbers who fall to their deaths?

__________________
Jack of all trades.
Mastered by No-one.

TreeDimensional

At least I'm glad we're over the racial thing.

Ekka

TITS =

Tie

In

Twice

Stupid!

__________________



Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google
Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping | Stump Grinding Brisbane
Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports | Project Arborist

Tree Machine

.......





. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...........








Really?


I thought tits were.....well, that's off-topic.


aasisoattt. Not the right yell-out?

Well, that would surely explain the odd looks.

Bermy

Tits aside....

In the UK they have a regulation called LOLER (Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulation) under which arborists must have their climbing equipment inspected every six months and their rigging equipment every year (or sooner depending on wear and tear of equipment)
You have to keep a log on every bit of kit you own that is used for lifting or suspending a load, yes a seperate piece of paper for EVERY piece! Each item must have a unique identifier number, be CE marked...

Twice a year, every single bit of kit must be independantly examined, harnesses, slings, ropes and carabiners. This is in addition to your normal pre/post-climb inspections and common sense safety checks. So twice a year someone other than you will be inspecting all your carabiners!

The inspector must have the certification from NPTC City & Guilds - Thorough Examination of Arboricultural Equipment, and be independent enough from your business to make recommendation that bits of kit are withdrawn from service when appropriate, even if its going to cost you $$$.

So some places do regulate inspections...if you have an accident with lifting equipment failing, either PPE or rigging and your LOLER stuff isn't up to date, you are in trouble if the HSE gets you.

__________________
Keep smiling, people will wonder what you are up to! (especially if you're gunning a chainsaw!)

TreeDimensional

I am aware that this is an international site, and I believe we are all aware of the dangers of doing tree work. I would even venture a guess that on every job site, situations occur that cause us to dig deep into our resource bag of tricks to rectify. This work experience, combined with education is what keeps us and our employees safe. I think it is obvious that this is where the commonality ends.

As the industry grows, we seem to be struggling with where we fit in the scheme of the regulatory bodies. For workers compensation in Saskatchewan, we are grouped in with the forestry workers and roofers. The only association with these other two groups, is that we work at height. As the forestry/logging industry becomes more technologically advanced, there is little that is done without machinery. That leaves the arborists grouped with the roofers. With all due respect for the roofers, the most serious mishap is the chance of a fall. The arborist is concerned with the chance of a fall, struck-bys, cuts, electrical hazards.......

Sorry, back to the point of the thread. What are WE doing to our industry as far as input into OUR standards. I like to come home at night. I like visiting with family and friends. I DON'T like the government dictating what is going to keep me safe. I understand there must be industry standards, we must comply with OH&S regulations. For me to bring in an inspector for MY personal gear, and keep a diary its use would kill my business. Logistically it would not work in a geographic location like mine. I have a small operation and only have one other worker, my wife. It is OUR equipment, we look after it.

My question is should small operations be compaired to large (more than 10 employees) as far as the inspection issue goes? The thing I hear often is how the larger companies employees don't look after the equipment. Why would they, it's NOT theirs. At the end of the day, it is the employer who is held accountable for the gear and the employee it an accident were to happen. The issue becomes more complex when an accident happens mid-term in the inspection period. Does anyone think that an employee is going to write a memo in a diary when he shock loads a carabiner? Especially if the company has a policy stating this is unacceptable. NO! Or MAYBE, depends on the employee. If the employee does report it, the boss is mad, if he doesn't someone could die.

The way around this is simple. All employees own their own equipment! The rules shouldn't be broken, but a lot of small tree operations have shut the doors because of an incident. This isn't meant to sound like a regulation bashing outburst. It is meant to be a wake-up call for the people that work at height. Look after yourself through respect for the equipment, it could be your own life your saving.