Tie 2 ropes together| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8

Ekka · 14th March 2008, 09:57 PM

Often the need arises to join ropes together. This thread is focused on the tying of two ropes together the same size/type for life support.

The rock climbing, caving, adventure and rescue people know of the perils in tying the wrong knot when joining ropes for life support. There's also a lot of data and testing and I found a site where there's some great well explained results.

This site's PDF's toward the bottom are well worth a look. They are factual tests, and a range of knots used and ropes also including aged ropes to see strength loss. I have also loaded them here, view in order!

Bushwalkers Wilderness Rescue Squad - Research

When joining two same type of ropes together there's talk of using a figure 8 knot. However there's 2 ways of tying it, rethreaded or abnormal.

Here's pics of the two, AVOID THE ABNORMAL METHOD LIKE THE PLAGUE!

playfordtree · 14th March 2008, 10:17 PM

How many of us trust our lives to just the double fishermans knot and nothing else?

Looks like you could raise the Titanic with that knot.

quercus · 14th March 2008, 10:35 PM

That's true, Playford... But the double fishermans knot is allmost impossible to untie when used in a dynamic rock climbing line whom has been under serious tension. The figure 8 is IMO better for dynamic lines. I don't even use the single figure of 8 loop anymore on a dnamic line. I use the double looped figure of 8 for that.

newguy18 · 26th March 2008, 10:22 AM

Define or better yet post a pic of a single figure eight loop.

Fairfield · 26th March 2008, 10:27 AM

How about the Zepplin Bend? I have started using that to take the place of the 8 and the double fisherman. Main reason is I hated how tight the frigen thing got on ya. Oh ya and I hate putting sticks in the knot!! So now I use the zepplin, pull and pull and pull on it and have problems getting it untied

. If you want I have video of me putting it under a 3:1 test with me pulling on it ( I am 150lbs ) I can post for ya, let me know.

Ekka · 26th March 2008, 10:33 AM

Where you been you BAMF!?

Yeah I use the Zepplin too however this thread was to point out the danger in the figure 8

Most people I know tie it the wrong way (abnormal) and roll out can happen.

Figure 8 is the strongest of all though. I know there's also the sheet bend however can you find numbers? the Zepplin never seems to have test info anywhere.

I have used the figure 8 to join ropes when pulling with a truck. Tied it close to the end of the rope, I call it a sacrificial knot, means if she doesn't come undone I cut it off and only lose the last little bit of rope. I do that because of the superior strength.

Sheetbend will go down to 50% rope strength and Zepplin I think is 65% where figure 8 is 80%, when you got a truck and leaning tree everything matters.

Fairfield · 26th March 2008, 10:42 AM

HaHa, ya you got that right! rather cut the knot at the end of the day then have to rebuild a roof

newguy18 · 26th March 2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairfield

How about the Zepplin Bend? I have started using that to take the place of the 8 and the double fisherman. Main reason is I hated how tight the frigen thing got on ya. Oh ya and I hate putting sticks in the knot!! So now I use the zepplin, pull and pull and pull on it and have problems getting it untied

. If you want I have video of me putting it under a 3:1 test with me pulling on it ( I am 150lbs ) I can post for ya, let me know.

Sure i'd like to see the video.I use a figure eight as the termination on my climb line[except for when i tail tie in which case i use a bowline].I'm always open to learning new knots.

Fairfield · 27th March 2008, 10:34 AM

sorry for getting off topic boys. Here you go NewGuy.
zepplin bend on Yahoo! Video

newguy18 · 27th March 2008, 02:10 PM

Definatly need to remember that one.Thanks alot.

bigshea13 · 27th March 2008, 03:04 PM

myself, i use two running bowlines. strength is not sacrificed, its always able to be undone, and everyone knows how to tie it...even the ground guys.

Ekka · 27th March 2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshea13

myself, i use two running bowlines. strength is not sacrificed, its always able to be undone, and everyone knows how to tie it...even the ground guys.

I'd argue that, got a pic? I think the bend ratio where the two ropes meet would be a servere weak point, much weaker than a rethreaded 8 anyway. Bowline are generally around 65% strength for termination use. Figure 8's in comparison 80%.

newguy18 · 28th March 2008, 01:05 AM

I also heard that where a running bowline bites it weakens the rope even more so than a regular bowline.Maybe someone can confirm?

Ekka · 28th March 2008, 01:27 AM

Yep, drops down as low as 50%

But we need to confirm how he's using it coz like we have seen here there's more than one way to tie a knot of the same name.

With a sheet bend for instance you can take wraps before the tail goes through.

newguy18 · 28th March 2008, 01:51 AM

I usually hook on to hitch balls with a cats paw with a stopper knot in the free end for most of my pulling,simple to untie and fairly strong.

Ekka · 28th March 2008, 01:59 AM

Well, I aint gonna bother asking for a pic of it if your taking it.

newguy18 · 28th March 2008, 02:03 AM

You might know it as a midline clove hitch.figure that with a figure eight in the tail.

Ekka · 29th March 2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairfield

sorry for getting off topic boys. Here you go NewGuy.
zepplin bend on Yahoo! Video

There's another way to tie it, I tie it like shown here.

Zeppelin Bend : Knot Tying Tutorial | ExpertVillage Videos

fatdog · 30th March 2008, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairfield

sorry for getting off topic boys. Here you go NewGuy.
zepplin bend on Yahoo! Video

Thanks for the video,looks like a good knot. I'm going to give it a try. Like they say it's always good to find new knots that work and easy to get undone afterwards. Thanks Fatdog

14th March 2008, 10:17 PM	#2
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Adelaide Australia Posts: 348	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 How many of us trust our lives to just the double fishermans knot and nothing else? Looks like you could raise the Titanic with that knot. __________________ Jack of all trades. Mastered by No-one.

14th March 2008, 10:35 PM	#3
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 379	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 That's true, Playford... But the double fishermans knot is allmost impossible to untie when used in a dynamic rock climbing line whom has been under serious tension. The figure 8 is IMO better for dynamic lines. I don't even use the single figure of 8 loop anymore on a dnamic line. I use the double looped figure of 8 for that.

26th March 2008, 10:22 AM	#4
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 5,184	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 Define or better yet post a pic of a single figure eight loop. __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA old schooler

26th March 2008, 10:27 AM	#5
Fairfield Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bucks county Pa USA Posts: 120	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 How about the Zepplin Bend? I have started using that to take the place of the 8 and the double fisherman. Main reason is I hated how tight the frigen thing got on ya. Oh ya and I hate putting sticks in the knot!! So now I use the zepplin, pull and pull and pull on it and have problems getting it untied . If you want I have video of me putting it under a 3:1 test with me pulling on it ( I am 150lbs ) I can post for ya, let me know. __________________ Hi yes you know me I am B.A.M.F nice to meet you

26th March 2008, 10:33 AM	#6
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,767	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 Where you been you BAMF!? Yeah I use the Zepplin too however this thread was to point out the danger in the figure 8 Most people I know tie it the wrong way (abnormal) and roll out can happen. Figure 8 is the strongest of all though. I know there's also the sheet bend however can you find numbers? the Zepplin never seems to have test info anywhere. I have used the figure 8 to join ropes when pulling with a truck. Tied it close to the end of the rope, I call it a sacrificial knot, means if she doesn't come undone I cut it off and only lose the last little bit of rope. I do that because of the superior strength. Sheetbend will go down to 50% rope strength and Zepplin I think is 65% where figure 8 is 80%, when you got a truck and leaning tree everything matters. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

26th March 2008, 10:42 AM	#7
Fairfield Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bucks county Pa USA Posts: 120	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 HaHa, ya you got that right! rather cut the knot at the end of the day then have to rebuild a roof __________________ Hi yes you know me I am B.A.M.F nice to meet you

27th March 2008, 10:34 AM	#9
Fairfield Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bucks county Pa USA Posts: 120	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 sorry for getting off topic boys. Here you go NewGuy. zepplin bend on Yahoo! Video __________________ Hi yes you know me I am B.A.M.F nice to meet you

27th March 2008, 02:10 PM	#10
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 5,184	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 Definatly need to remember that one.Thanks alot. __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA old schooler

27th March 2008, 03:04 PM	#11
bigshea13 Former Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: super 8 motels Posts: 387	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 myself, i use two running bowlines. strength is not sacrificed, its always able to be undone, and everyone knows how to tie it...even the ground guys.

28th March 2008, 01:05 AM	#13
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 5,184	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 I also heard that where a running bowline bites it weakens the rope even more so than a regular bowline.Maybe someone can confirm? __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA old schooler

28th March 2008, 01:27 AM	#14
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,767	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 Yep, drops down as low as 50% But we need to confirm how he's using it coz like we have seen here there's more than one way to tie a knot of the same name. With a sheet bend for instance you can take wraps before the tail goes through. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

28th March 2008, 01:51 AM	#15
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 5,184	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 I usually hook on to hitch balls with a cats paw with a stopper knot in the free end for most of my pulling,simple to untie and fairly strong. __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA old schooler

28th March 2008, 01:59 AM	#16
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,767	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 Well, I aint gonna bother asking for a pic of it if your taking it. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

28th March 2008, 02:03 AM	#17
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 5,184	Re: Tie 2 ropes together\| Rethreaded figure 8 vs Abnormal figure 8 You might know it as a midline clove hitch.figure that with a figure eight in the tail. __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA old schooler

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