Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable

treeseer

Does anyone in australia use these? Rigguy, Inc.

Tree Machine

I'm not in Australia, but I do. Have only cabled 30 or so trees with this particular system, so I have yet to dig in deep and get real knowlegable.

From the first-year perspective, very impressive. With wirestops, hi-tensile, EHS cable ONLY, no soft-annealed.

newguy18

I never used ehs cable and I always hand spliced mine but I'll give it a try when I get to cable a tree again.

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old schooler

Tree Machine

There's no J-lags or thimbles or 'splicing' (as you term it) or any of that system. It would be a total changeover of rigging and gear, all except for the come-along.

newguy18

I said I never used ehs cable.

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old schooler

DBS

i was at the TCIA expo and chatted w/ the booth rep about this system.all materials are quality manufactured, it seemed VERY straight fwd and requires very limited tools to install the system.




-Daryl

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TrevMcRev

I've done lots of cabling, mostly with cobra, rarely with steel wire.

So the website doesn't show it installed in a tree but i'll take a guess that the wire goes right through the stem.....
with the stopper on the outer end....
If so, would it need a washer/plate as well so it doesnt pull through too easy???

It definately looks like a better form of termination than a thimble and wire crimps, and i like the hub, that looks very effective for triple leader bracing.

Just not too clear on how it attaches to a stem

newguy18

With regular steel cable you get about 2/3rds up in the tree and lets say for example you have a codominant stem with 2 leaders you drill 1 hole in each leader that are level with each other so the cable pulls straight and depending on your prefrence you can get long lag eyes for smaller wood or use j lags for larger wood.After that its a simple matter of splicing one end with a thimble to one of the anchors and then tightening up the other end and splicng it with a thimble to the other anchor.Simple but for the next tree I'm gonna try the cobra system as it looks like a real time saver.

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old schooler

Drouin Tree Service

I need to get round to bolting/steel cabling a tulip tree thats been on the drawing board.

Thanks for the link.

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Tree Machine

The main problem with J-lags is they can pull out, even if you slightly undersize the lag pilot hole as is recommended. This is uncommon, but happens. When it does happen, it can be bad, like the event you're trying to prevent happens.

I spent the better part of a decade cabeling trees as described by Newguy, usually 1/2" diameter J-lags, though I like left and right threads for tensioning and helical wraps for thimble attachment, end termination. On bigger trees I use the 5/16" extra high strength cable. On smaller ones, like bradfords, 1/4" soft-annealed cable with hand-wrapped terminations.

I still do small trees like that, but big ones, where forces are greater and stakes are higher, I had to look for a better, more secure system.

It was one of my big-tree J-lag cables that pulled out in a storm and dumped the stem onto the house, just as I predicted would happen if we did not install a cable. Quite an embarassing call, as you can imagine, but I didn't get sued.

I have also used big through-bolts, far-side terminated with big washers, nuts, heavy hardware, same helical terminations, thimbles, etc. Very secure, fairly expensive, just a lot of work to install, but that basically was about the fat thru-hole for the long eye bolt. Plus, that bolt needs to be longer than the hole you drill, or you're totally screwed. Generally speaking, you want to drill your through-hole horizontal, in line with the direction of the cable, so the hole drilled can be much longer than the diameter of the limb itself, depending on the angle of the limb you're drilling into

With wirestops, you get that far-side termination advantage, the diameter of the thru-hole you drill is the same as the diameter of the cable, affixing the termination is really slick and easy (one end can be done on the ground). The process is pretty fast and if you can get fast at drilling the (smaller diameter) thru-holes and cutting the cable, the whole process is speedier than anything else I've tried.

But, you DO need to drill completely through the stem. This takes serious drill power. If you use cordless drills on something like this, you're gonna heat and fry batteries (more correctly put, you will diminish their life). If you run out of battery power, You must have a second battery, if not, you're screwed. If so, you better hope the second one lasts or you gotta come back later. This is not a way to make an income.

A washer can be installed as an option, but the diameter size of the wirestop itself, compared to the diameter of the cable hole it would have to be pulled through, basically the wirestop termination acts as the washer.

Trees I used to slate for takedown, I am now more willing to cable because of the security over lags, and the swiftness with which I can do an install. I charge $175 per cable, $250 for a dual and compare it to the possible costs of the one single event that the cable would be there to prevent. Makes it seem like cheap insurance to the client when viewed like that. An install is usually around an hour, faster on smaller trees but I generally only cable bigger trees. The bulk of that hour is assembling all the tools and getting them up there, and the put-way after the install. The actual install itselff is remarkably fast if you have the right tools at hand. It would be way faster and easier if one was working out of a bucket.

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Urban Treecare NZ

Hi Guys,
only really use cobra for bracing these days, steel cable and bolting is frowned upon in the industry here, to distructive and does not allow the tree to move and can constrict and lead to limb failures and fibre buckling, we only use steel or cable bracing in conjunction with heavily rated soft strops if required.

TrevMcRev

Thanks TM, so it installs like i thought and stopper is big enough, cool.

Sounds better than threaded rod, nuts, washers, eyes & thimbles etc.

I've never used j-lags for the reasons you mentioned.

Still drill for rod bracing unions occaisionally combined with cobra cable if there's already some splitting at the union, otherwise just cobra standard(1t) most times and done a couple with cobra plus(4t)

Toasted a couple of cheap drill before getting a good bosch corded one .

treeseer

TM, beautifully explained--you da man!

I'm gonna quote you on that okay?

O and I use non-EHS cable on little trees. EHS is hard to cut, but worth the fuss when forces are measured in tons.

Do you use a havens grip to tighten? I hate the crimp it puts in, even tho it may be slight. The BMP's call for a non-crimping "Chicago grip", but I cannot find one anywhere.

Tree Machine

The Chicago grip I believe is also known as a 'porkchop', a cammed cable gripper. I had one of those and I know 'about' where it is in one opf my spreads of mulch..... when I can get a metal detector in my hands I'll go find it.

You can use a prussik to grip the cable if you attach a vice-grip. The vise-grip to use has the jaw that is shaped to grip a hex nut, as it grips the cable circumferentially, but any pair will work. The other models, though, grip by squeezing from opposite sides. I take a piece of webbing, or the finger from a leather glove, cover the cable with it, and then tightly grip the glove-over-the-cable. This protects and keeps from crimping or shaving off any of the zinc coating. The prussik is attached ahead of the vise grip and thus won't slide unless the vise-grip itself slides.

Generally I use this thingy that's used to grip and pull barbed wire. it will just fit over a 5/16" cable and I use the vise-grip trick to keep it from slipping as it otherwise sometimes will.

I also carry a pair of mini vise grips. These make swift the un-twising of the cable end, and also the bending of the middle cable strand that stops the inner wire-stop cone. I also bend the other six outer strands inward, not that it's needed, but it gives a better finished look.

Tree Machine

I stand corrected. Chicago grip. I found one for you here, at Karl Kuemmerling.


The cable gripper I used to use, the one at the bottom of the mulch pile known as the 'Porkchop' I bought from an industrial rigging supply, American Wire Rope and Sling. It was called a Klein grip and worked really well. It looks something like, well, like a porkchop:

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treeseer

oh, kuemmerling has it, cool. i bought some stuff from them at the ohio chapter show last week. What a great chapter! i got to talk to 1 muni and 2 commercial audiences, and see 8" of snow fall.

Yeah the one in your pic looks like my havens grip. I haven't seen a pork chp in a long time--my kid converted me to veganism. I'll wait to order up a chicago grip until I see your glove/vise grip/duct tape rig in action.

Treelore

I love the wirestop fasteners, very practical method. The only problem is with the wire stops is it requires a tensioning device that drill throughs don't. The system I am mostly familiar with is drill through rods with a quick grip and thimble. The ease of this is that the ever so slight tensioning needed can be acquired simply by cutting wire to length with slack bolts and creating tension by tightening nuts, so no cable fixing equipment is required. Whereas with wirestop although less tools are required in the tree you have to use a cable gripper to create the required (ever so slight) tension. And trying to affix a cable gripper in itself can be tedious.

Tree Machine

I did an interesting tensioning the other day. Dual-stem cherry, the side I was tied into I set the cable first. That side is now done.

Move over to the other stem, set a redirect with a pulley, drop your climbing line in. Your weight alone is now pulling the stems together.

When the second cable end is through, pull the cable hand-tight, mark the exit spot, then settle your weight on the rope, see how far through the cable advances. Set the termination while weighting the rope, de-tension. I set my cables taught, but not highly tensioned.

I have used a 2:1 pulley system where the terminal pully is a cammed one, like a Petzl ProTraxion; tension, and it stays tensioned when you take your weight off. Cammed pully, much more compact than a come-a-long and cable grip.

I have used a Maasdam rope puller (rope come-a-long) to pull stems together and keep from actually having to tension the cable itself

(amazing what you can come up with when you forget to bring up part of your gear)

You don't always need a cable gripper or come-a-long. It very much depends, though, on the tree and the way you set the rig .

treeseer

I did the same thing with a little maple yesterday. 190# leaning was enough to set tension.

O and newguy, between the caffeine addiction and the lack of roughage, and vitamins, and minerals, and...I wouldn't give 2 cents for your chance at a long life. Not a big consideration at your age, but when you are looking at 60...

Dead animals--yuk.

newguy18

Lack of vitamens?i take a multi vitamen everyday.I just don't like veggies.Heck i'd die from not eating meat my body would probabley go into some sorta shock.

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old schooler

Tree Machine

And what type of footing you have at the site of the install.

A Bucket truck would make cabling so much easier.


A comparison of each system:

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treevet

I can honestly say I have installed perhaps approx 1000 cables in about 40 years of tree care. I have never to my knowledge, and I check them periodically, had one j lag pullout. I would never put one in where any decay is suspected, but may consider eye bolts or poss. just removal. Wherever I have seen j lags pull out it is usually too small a system for the stress or way too low and you can imagine the climber too scared to proceed any higher.

I think the drill through gives the stem an injury all the way through and consequently introduces decay through the entire span. Shigo has much to say about depth of wound considerations. It also seems to me that movement of the cable with the 2 stems would inhibit closure of the interior drill locations as it is not stable there as in hardware. We need to think about more than time involved or ease of application IMO.

Also it should be noted in either of these applications, there is the consideration of metal fatigue and deterioration. One manufacturer, when asked told me that metal galvanized cable probably has a useful life of 10 years when installed to support a tree in this manner.

Tree Machine

All good points, except the ten year thing. That is a best-guess, an approximation, a sophisticated wild-ass guess. Speculation. Someone's reasonable estimate. Wirestops have not even been around ten years so empirical, time-tested data is not, as I know it, even available. That makes all estimates just that. Suppose another manufacturer said '60 years.' Then what could or would we believe?

I would think the specific tree specie and mother nature's variables may have a lot of sayso in this.


I'm all for objective testing when it comes to materials, not heresay.

treevet

I know what you are saying TM, but regardless of how long wire stops or rig-guy stuff has been around, as always the system is only as strong as it's weakest link. Cable has existed for decades and research, not wild ass guesses as you rightly observed should be extremely important to us in the field. When do we replace or when do we poss even add above or below?

Yes, of course there are variables but we have the ability to pull test with current gages and environment can be quantified, etc., and then a less than wild ass guess of life span should perhaps be entered on a tag, with installer info. so that evaluation can be ascertained after the fact even if HO changes or arborist-client relationship changes.

It is all part of us maturing as a credible profession.

We need to press the manufacturers or ANSI for a response on this.

Tree Machine

And then it there's always the weather event that could blow out whatever system is installed. That is regardless of whether we're talking about strength of materials, or degree of invasiveness/tree response

All true, Treevet. I totally respect experience in the Arborist on this one. You have probably hundreds more installs, and I'm fairly certain you have dissected trees from both your own cable systems and the operable or defunct cables of Arborists past. If you're like me, you take the opportunity to split the wood at the site of install, and keeping the CODIT model in mind, inspect and look at the affected site, look, touch, smell, whatever for clues the tree might offer as to that site-specific decay profile. Take in the clues the tree has to offer, attempt to better understand, and then get ya azz back to work.

I cable trees ONLY to preserve them. If the tree wasn't offering me a bleak picture of its likely future, I wouldn't consider it. I don't really enjoy cabling, it takes an entirely other set of tools than regular treecare, cabling is WORK, no matter how you cut it, only made easier by not having to climb (bucket).

I do, however, actively pursue trying to save savable trees by stabilizing the questionable fork.

If I thought the life was only ten years I would have to reconsider how I currently do things. I am here to learn.

treevet

We are obviously on the same page on everything.

Nobody has ever purchased an exotic cruise on profits made through cabling.

I know you are a highly experienced and information seeking arborist.

At the top of your post you mentioned an extreme weather event nullifying any efforts we have put forth. Couple of years ago the largest burr oak in Ohio, my client's tree and just down the block from me was struck with a violent downshear wind event. It snapped the cable installed previous to me being involved. I wanted to replace the entire system before this happened but HO could not see spending twice no matter what I said.

It deposited a branch that a 20 ton crane situated right next to the house, could not budge and blew dark ominous black smoke. It crushed the entire south side of the structure and it had to be rebuilt.

We brought in some larger equipment and upon clearing the leader, I found 2 other huge leaders (3 foot dia, over 100 foot lgth......tree was 130 feet in ht. overall) that had major splits in crotches that leaned over the house.

Risking my life and having quoted 10, 000 $ bcs of the danger involved I cut back the entire 500 year old tree (increment boring-not mine) approx 33 percent, and it has done quite well despite the injustice and the client is happy. I also installed a real nice rope swing and I think this softened the huge expense a little. Their kids love it and the tree.

Point being, as you suggested, no system would have altered this destiny, but maybe the ass would be covered bcs of extreme circumstances.

treeseer

vet, it's a rare case when I see the old cable doing more harm than good. Usually I look to add one above, and leave the old one below. I hope you comment on ansi when it rolls around again in 2010.

Today I'm going to cambistat 2 old oaks; no pruning on them this year.

re depth of wound with wirestops vs width of wound with lags, hmmm...

treevet

The one instance I see old cable instigating, that would be worse than none at all would be where a gaping co dom had been drawn up to closure, neglected for many years (not identified for life span) and failure of cable occurred. This would go beyond the original untreated state into an episode of "throwing" the leader, and the ensuing inertia/momentum could cause the catastrophe that was attempted to be prevented. Usually a screw rod would be a back up/lateral stabilizer to this installation but this could fail also with such a force.

Eric Frei

How come you guys like cable (static) over dynamic systems?

I'm thinking there's a reason other than looks or price.

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treevet

To "sort of" support a co dom that has been identified as a candidate for failure doesn t compute in my little birdbrain. Perhaps you could give some insight as to why you would install a rubberband when you could more certainly limit movement with wire. I do not cinch them up, but allow a little movement.

I know it is nice to allow a little sway for aesthetics, or ?, but we have some unbelievable weather extremes here (ice storms, big blows from odd angles, etc.) and you d have egg on your face with you and HO standing next to huge limb laying on kitchen floor with bungee attached to it they paid for and you recommended.