Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable

treevet · 21st October 2008, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutofMytree

Very interesting thread with lots of diverse opinions.

I have no tree cabling experience whatsoever. I am however, a trade qualified sheet metal worker, with years of experience in fixings in a category 1 cyclone zone.

I have read the theoretical discussions over the life of galvanised steel with some interest. Perhaps I can add some fuel to the bonfire. Where it is true that galvanised (zinc coated) steel stays uncorroded for longer than uncoated steel, this is only true whilst the coating is 100% along the entire cable length. Once the coating is breached in ANY part the integrity of the ENTIRE cable is compromised. Key factors which lead to loss of coating are, friction, flex, heat, humidity and electrical activity. The trickiest of these is in fact the last mentioned. Electrical activity in metals is generated by potential voltage differences in different metals. That means, if one part of the system, even a washer for example, is a different metal or even a different alloy of the same metal, then corrosion through voltage differential can and will occur.

Years ago, aluminium pop rivets hit the market. If you have ever used a pop rivet gun you know how tired your hands get after 20-30 or so and professionals can do 500 a day. So aluminium rivets being softer became very popular very fast. Untill roofing became airborne in high winds and the cause was traced back to corrosion due to voltage differential. The sheets in question were installed 18 months prior to failure.

My point here is not that I expect people use aluminium, but rather that corrosion is the enemy of steel and can come from the most unlikely of sources. There is no substitute for annual or even bi-annual inspection of steel cables in high stress situations.

Zinc is far less flexible than steel. So places where the cable is bent,spliced or frayed is the 1st place that the coating will crack where the cable simply flexed. Look there first. It greatly concerns me that parts of a fixing system are hidden by the trees own growth within a short period of time.

In australia, when an EWP undergoes its 10 year inspection, all structural welds must be xrayed to confirm they are not deformed or damaged in any way. It seems to me that a cable system in a tree will be under strees from many directions over time so its integrity must, by default, be of greater concern than a parallel MIG weld on a steel boom.

I recently asked for input on cabling I had seen and was unsure of. Although the installation of the cable was suspect the materials were first class. The cables and fittings were all stainless steel. Other than cost, is there any reason why stainless steel cable is not used in trees? I ask because the life of stainless steel exposed to all elements is far in excess of any metal commonly used including aluminium and zinc coated steel.

Once again, I have no tree cabling experience. I raise these points for discussion and dissection rather than argument.

GREAT informational post. Bending, friction, heat, humidity, different metals in contact with each other...crimping as in Rigguy....all causing a breach in the system causing the "weak link in the chain". This stuff is all relevant. Remember years ago there was a change in washers from steel to galvanized on galv. screw rod installations and this must be why. I think thimbles are usually galvanized (?) but what about rigguy deadends. I am pretty sure pro eyebolt nuts are galv but you have to bend the shxt out of a thimble to get it on the eye.

Now we're getting somewhere. But this info needs to be quantified. How much loss is suffered in a splice, or crimping in rigguy deadend, or torquing of nuts on a screw rod, or threaded eyebolt, etc. etc. How much effect is the moisture in the length of the rigguy cable hidden from view as compared to the tighter and thicker eyebolt/lagbolt. Is there poss any remedial procedure such as painting the splice periodically or the crimp in the deadend. In TM's scenario there is extra support but is the longevity negated by sametime installation and these cables suffering the same degradations or corrosion starting at the same time? Maybe the scenario is to install one and in X time span then come back and install the other and then so on and so on buying more time?

treevet · 21st October 2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

A cabled tree is more dangerous than an uncabled (but needing of one) tree because of the throw from accumulated stress by mass over the years upon failure and also because of the potentially unfounded confidence in the arb. allowing a group for example to gather under this tree during the wind because they expected they had purchased protection from the competent arb.

Let me rephrase this:

A large extensively split tree we all have seen defying nature, gravity, physics and common sense, above a high level target...

....is less dangerous than the same tree with the high level target that has a cable/s that has/have been cinched up or been in the tree for years accumulating mass on the stressed member..........

because when the cable fails early on (from poor materials, storm, poor installation, etc.) or inevitable system degradation later on, the stressed member will be "thrown" for sure adding to the likelyhood of failure at codom, tridom, decay pocket, overweighted segment or whatever was attempting to be mitigated by the support.

Eric Frei · 22nd October 2008, 12:04 AM

But once the "uncabled (but needing of one) tree" is cabled then for a period of time it is in fact less dangerous than it was before.

treevet · 22nd October 2008, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

But once the "uncabled (but needing of one) tree" is cabled then for a period of time it is in fact less dangerous than it was before.

No doubt about that but we HAVE to pin down life span like on this thread and inferior techniques to delete that loading moment. This (your forum) develops BMP's and maybe in a better environment. We could cast them in stone in the confi forum?

OutofMytree · 22nd October 2008, 12:46 AM

I can see TreeVets point regarding loading. It makes perfect sense that if a tree is cabled to prevent a break and the leader continues to grow then it has greater potential energy with each passing year. Having greater potential energy it would require greater branch strength to hold it in place UNLESS by cabling the tree is able to grow stronger.....?

Tree Machine · 22nd October 2008, 01:16 AM

and the lower the set, the higher the likelihood, which is why the industry standard is for the cable(s) to be set 2/3 between the crotch and the tree top, not 2/3 from the ground to the top.

Tree Machine · 6th November 2008, 12:04 AM

I was on my way to a cabling job recently and on the drive there, I saw this rig. Certainly not 2/3 of the way up the crown, but I may just keep this one in my idea basket. It's more like a brace rod in function, just not through the actual trunk itself. It was about a meter above the trunk's main fork.

I don't know what the anchors are, but it's been there a long time and it doesn't look like its going anywhere. There was not a chain looped around the individual stems.

newguy18 · 6th November 2008, 12:08 AM

treevet · 6th November 2008, 04:26 AM

Looks like a load binder or a chain ratchet from the handle.

treevet · 6th November 2008, 04:45 AM

Last week I encountered this boxed in system I installed about 8 years ago, that survived the hurricane while removing the branch pictured above the cables that broke. All lags were mostly swallowed but what I could see appeared to be in good condition. This system definitely kept this old hack. together as many heavy multi doms were very low crotched and other similar trees nearby were tore up. The branch that was hanging was secured prior to doing anything by a lanyard and timber hitch that is my SOP.

Eric Frei · 6th November 2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

No doubt about that but we HAVE to pin down life span like on this thread and inferior techniques to delete that loading moment. This (your forum) develops BMP's and maybe in a better environment. We could cast them in stone in the confi forum?

Well, what does the current BMP's say about lifespan and replacement?

Also, in your boxed picture, what do you estimate was the maximum force put onto those cables?

treeseer · 6th November 2008, 11:15 PM

Nice pictures nice work good SOP Dave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Well, what does the current BMP's say about lifespan and replacement?

Periodic inspection of tension, mtls, location and tree structure. "Steel cables may last 20 to 40 yrs in a slow growing tree in a dry climate." With all the variables that is as specific as we are likely to see.

treevet · 6th November 2008, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Well, what does the current BMP's say about lifespan and replacement?

Also, in your boxed picture, what do you estimate was the maximum force put onto those cables?

I haven't ordered the BMP yet. I think I will today along with Schwartz's (sp?) $190. book on fungus. Been so busy and desk is about 6 inches deep.

We were hit by 80 plus mph winds that sustained for about 6 hours. The lead that takes the hardest hit is the one at the forefront of the hit of the wind in that direction. There is no way to protect that leader with any system and it varies depending on the direction of the wind at the time. The others in a multi dom are all buffered and support each other.

treevet · 7th November 2008, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

Nice pictures nice work good SOP Dave.

Periodic inspection of tension, mtls, location and tree structure. "Steel cables may last 20 to 40 yrs in a slow growing tree in a dry climate." With all the variables that is as specific as we are likely to see.

Thanks Guy.

Within that many years as we have mentioned before we will likely be adding cables above to retain the 2/3 rd support from the protect crotch (es). Unless it is a very old tree and growth has diminished.

Garry Brockley · 11th November 2008, 06:34 AM

This is how they used to do it here the red arrow is the band fastener and the green arrow is the fork of the tree i couldn't see any evidence of a split or crack.

treevet · 11th November 2008, 06:39 AM

What were those people that do not know anything about how trees function trying to accomplish?

Garry Brockley · 11th November 2008, 06:48 AM

Man i can't tell you how much i laughed when i saw it, the first thing i thought was now there is a disaster waiting to happen the guys will love this one (god i need to get a life) for a how not to rig a tree

treevet · 11th November 2008, 09:40 AM

That is a first for me too. Had to be a lot of work installing and likely there was fabrication.

There were a lot of assumptions made there. Love to get them on here and see what they were thinkin. Couldn't have been that awful long ago as they are still visible unless tree was drastically stunted by this as is prob the case. Amazing they lived thru it.

field day for decay now I am sure.

OutofMytree · 11th November 2008, 09:57 PM

Sometimes it helps to be ignorant. I would look at that and say the installer was bracing something from the tree rather than the tree itself. Or perhaps it was just a nutbag!

Tree Machine · 12th November 2008, 12:38 AM

I saw this setup quite a few years ago, on a vacation up in Chase, Michigan.

The installer used wire rope and 6 cable clamps, which are on the other side. At least they used boards to protect the tree.

I whacked the cable with a limb. It was very tight. I didn't have the heart to tell the geezer the boards would decay in a matter of years.

treevet · 24th January 2009, 11:51 AM

Just read the entire ANSI standard on cabling and not a word/blurb mentioned about Rigguy. I have an email into the chair of the committee Robt. Rouse (I have met him before at a seminar) to comment on Rigguy. Will get back when he does.

treeseer · 24th January 2009, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

Just read the entire ANSI standard on cabling and not a word/blurb mentioned about Rigguy. I have an email into the chair of the committee Robt. Rouse (I have met him before at a seminar) to comment on Rigguy. Will get back when he does.

Asking for comments may or may not get a response. Offering comments usually does.
The committee meets a few times a year so it may be a while...

treevet · 25th January 2009, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

Asking for comments may or may not get a response. Offering comments usually does.
The committee meets a few times a year so it may be a while...

I am ready willing and able to make some comments. I emailed directly to the chair Robert Rouse so I am expecting a slow response but not what it would take to get one from the committee.

I will probably make those comments after your thoughts, sooner rather than later though (to the board). I have a few suggestions. The lack of discussion re. termination; Rigguy, splice, ubolt/clamp, dead end...is a glaring hole in the standard.

treejames64 · 14th April 2009, 01:06 PM

I have alway used the high tensiled cable for added strengh and drilling through the entire stem, eye bolts etc. I usually charge 450.00 per one cable and come down if there are multibles. Usually I'm working with large live oaks and use 2ft plus drill bits. Its a major pain which consists of using a generator and long chord. I wanted to use the new cobra system however it's uv resistant up to around 10 years (I think). In Florida that kind of stuff breaks down fast and I don't want to be sued. I have never seen one done with an eyebolt fail. However once in the tree usually closes over the washer and nut which prevents any kind of adjustment so once in they are in for life. Sometimes cutting the tree down years later is a real challenge. Also the cobra just can't handle the weight. They seem to be made for light tree systems. I sure would like to find a good system that gets around drilling.

mobetta · 14th December 2009, 01:19 AM

What happened to this thread??? so much exchange and then almost nothing... I'm a new user of rig-guy stops and have wondered about all the questions raised...

1) What about the metalurgy question... alluminum in contact with Zinc/Steel... and the potential for voltage induced corrosion over time?

2) Why don't we use Stainless Steel? Every time I install an "old school" style system with 7 strand common and all the hardware, flakes of zinc coating from the bending to open and re-close the thimbles and wrap the cable abound... so the protective function of the zinc is shot... (which tends to suggest that dead-end grips are better from a corrosion standpoint, but I've seen two installed by other tree pro's fail... so I don't trust them.)

3) It can be very difficult to line everthing up in a cabling system... and I would venture a guess that the testing done on wire stops assumes everything is perfectly in line... but that's not real world... even my best work is slightly out of line... so how do such mis-allignment factors weaken the Rigguy setup? My sense is that "old school" rod+eye nut+thimble+wire wrap systems can tolerate mis-allignment better because of the thimbles ability to move on the eye-nut a little... whereas a rigguy stop, if not resting flat against the trunk, perfectly perpendicular to the cable, will see some of the wires under more tension that the ones on the opposite side of the stop.

... more questions than answers and very curious for more discussion / experience...

Eric Frei · 14th December 2009, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobetta

but I've seen two installed by other tree pro's fail... so I don't trust them.

Have you seen 2 Rigguy system break?

Not grilling you but some pics would be great to discuss this.

mobetta · 14th December 2009, 12:50 PM

No, I haven't seen Rigguy wire stop systems fail... I've seen dead end grip systems fail... the ones that spiral around the end of EHS cable. In both cases, if I recall, the strands of the dead-end grip broke at the thimble... in one case, it appeared that too light duty a thimble was used and movement in the tree had abraded partially through the thimble enough to weaken some of the dead-end grip strands. In the other, I think that was just the weak link in the system as the dead-end grips are only 3? wires.

TrevMcRev · 15th December 2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobetta

No, I haven't seen Rigguy wire stop systems fail... I've seen dead end grip systems fail... the ones that spiral around the end of EHS cable. In both cases, if I recall, the strands of the dead-end grip broke at the thimble... in one case, it appeared that too light duty a thimble was used and movement in the tree had abraded partially through the thimble enough to weaken some of the dead-end grip strands. In the other, I think that was just the weak link in the system as the dead-end grips are only 3? wires.

Those things are weird, nobody uses them for cabling here.

For steel systems we would have used through bolts with an eye, and wire cable with a thimble secured by 3 wire grips.

22nd October 2008, 12:04 AM	#123
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,814	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable But once the "uncabled (but needing of one) tree" is cabled then for a period of time it is in fact less dangerous than it was before. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

22nd October 2008, 12:46 AM	#125
OutofMytree Former Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Perth Posts: 307	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable I can see TreeVets point regarding loading. It makes perfect sense that if a tree is cabled to prevent a break and the leader continues to grow then it has greater potential energy with each passing year. Having greater potential energy it would require greater branch strength to hold it in place UNLESS by cabling the tree is able to grow stronger.....?

6th November 2008, 12:04 AM	#127
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 955	I was on my way to a cabling job recently and on the drive there, I saw this rig. Certainly not 2/3 of the way up the crown, but I may just keep this one in my idea basket. It's more like a brace rod in function, just not through the actual trunk itself. It was about a meter above the trunk's main fork. I don't know what the anchors are, but it's been there a long time and it doesn't look like its going anywhere. There was not a chain looped around the individual stems. Attached Thumbnails

6th November 2008, 12:08 AM	#128
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

6th November 2008, 04:26 AM	#129
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable Looks like a load binder or a chain ratchet from the handle.

22nd October 2008, 01:16 AM	#126
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 955	and the lower the set, the higher the likelihood, which is why the industry standard is for the cable(s) to be set 2/3 between the crotch and the tree top, not 2/3 from the ground to the top.

6th November 2008, 04:45 AM	#130
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable Last week I encountered this boxed in system I installed about 8 years ago, that survived the hurricane while removing the branch pictured above the cables that broke. All lags were mostly swallowed but what I could see appeared to be in good condition. This system definitely kept this old hack. together as many heavy multi doms were very low crotched and other similar trees nearby were tore up. The branch that was hanging was secured prior to doing anything by a lanyard and timber hitch that is my SOP. Attached Thumbnails

11th November 2008, 06:34 AM	#135
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,649	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable This is how they used to do it here the red arrow is the band fastener and the green arrow is the fork of the tree i couldn't see any evidence of a split or crack. Attached Thumbnails __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care

11th November 2008, 06:39 AM	#136
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable What were those people that do not know anything about how trees function trying to accomplish?

11th November 2008, 06:48 AM	#137
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,649	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable Man i can't tell you how much i laughed when i saw it, the first thing i thought was now there is a disaster waiting to happen the guys will love this one (god i need to get a life) for a how not to rig a tree __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care

11th November 2008, 09:40 AM	#138
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable That is a first for me too. Had to be a lot of work installing and likely there was fabrication. There were a lot of assumptions made there. Love to get them on here and see what they were thinkin. Couldn't have been that awful long ago as they are still visible unless tree was drastically stunted by this as is prob the case. Amazing they lived thru it. field day for decay now I am sure.

11th November 2008, 09:57 PM	#139
OutofMytree Former Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Perth Posts: 307	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable Sometimes it helps to be ignorant. I would look at that and say the installer was bracing something from the tree rather than the tree itself. Or perhaps it was just a nutbag!

12th November 2008, 12:38 AM	#140
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 955	I saw this setup quite a few years ago, on a vacation up in Chase, Michigan. The installer used wire rope and 6 cable clamps, which are on the other side. At least they used boards to protect the tree. I whacked the cable with a limb. It was very tight. I didn't have the heart to tell the geezer the boards would decay in a matter of years. Attached Thumbnails

24th January 2009, 11:51 AM	#141
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable Just read the entire ANSI standard on cabling and not a word/blurb mentioned about Rigguy. I have an email into the chair of the committee Robt. Rouse (I have met him before at a seminar) to comment on Rigguy. Will get back when he does.

14th April 2009, 01:06 PM	#144
treejames64 Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gainesville, fl Posts: 104	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable I have alway used the high tensiled cable for added strengh and drilling through the entire stem, eye bolts etc. I usually charge 450.00 per one cable and come down if there are multibles. Usually I'm working with large live oaks and use 2ft plus drill bits. Its a major pain which consists of using a generator and long chord. I wanted to use the new cobra system however it's uv resistant up to around 10 years (I think). In Florida that kind of stuff breaks down fast and I don't want to be sued. I have never seen one done with an eyebolt fail. However once in the tree usually closes over the washer and nut which prevents any kind of adjustment so once in they are in for life. Sometimes cutting the tree down years later is a real challenge. Also the cobra just can't handle the weight. They seem to be made for light tree systems. I sure would like to find a good system that gets around drilling.

14th December 2009, 01:19 AM	#145
mobetta I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Hudson Valley, New York, USA Posts: 2	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable What happened to this thread??? so much exchange and then almost nothing... I'm a new user of rig-guy stops and have wondered about all the questions raised... 1) What about the metalurgy question... alluminum in contact with Zinc/Steel... and the potential for voltage induced corrosion over time? 2) Why don't we use Stainless Steel? Every time I install an "old school" style system with 7 strand common and all the hardware, flakes of zinc coating from the bending to open and re-close the thimbles and wrap the cable abound... so the protective function of the zinc is shot... (which tends to suggest that dead-end grips are better from a corrosion standpoint, but I've seen two installed by other tree pro's fail... so I don't trust them.) 3) It can be very difficult to line everthing up in a cabling system... and I would venture a guess that the testing done on wire stops assumes everything is perfectly in line... but that's not real world... even my best work is slightly out of line... so how do such mis-allignment factors weaken the Rigguy setup? My sense is that "old school" rod+eye nut+thimble+wire wrap systems can tolerate mis-allignment better because of the thimbles ability to move on the eye-nut a little... whereas a rigguy stop, if not resting flat against the trunk, perfectly perpendicular to the cable, will see some of the wires under more tension that the ones on the opposite side of the stop. ... more questions than answers and very curious for more discussion / experience...

14th December 2009, 12:50 PM	#147
mobetta I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Hudson Valley, New York, USA Posts: 2	Re: Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable No, I haven't seen Rigguy wire stop systems fail... I've seen dead end grip systems fail... the ones that spiral around the end of EHS cable. In both cases, if I recall, the strands of the dead-end grip broke at the thimble... in one case, it appeared that too light duty a thimble was used and movement in the tree had abraded partially through the thimble enough to weaken some of the dead-end grip strands. In the other, I think that was just the weak link in the system as the dead-end grips are only 3? wires.

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