Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable

newguy18

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newguy18

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treevet

PPss. I have a number of ISA's bmp's and they ARE GREAT (not to mention every (every) book in their catalogue.....huge expense) ....but at the current moment I do not require any assistance in the area of cabling.....thank you very much mates

treeseer

Bill, maybe rb is saying that wherever there are big cracking trees, there is a market for cabling. If you were more familiar with the service, you would be able to effectively market it. For $1/year the BMP's (I did not get the SOP joke) keep you current with industry standards--no one knows so much that they are above the BMP's. Without them you could recommend something crazy like installing 1/3 above the fork, instead of the standard 2/3.

TM sells a lot in IN; I sell it in Gainesville FL so we know it could sell in Live Oak, or anywhere. Compare it to the cost of removal and replacement; that makes the sale.

vet i see no reason to think the 7 strands get weaker by unspiraling the end when the fastener is installed. What do you base this concern on?

treevet

My concern with the separation is the cable not working as a unit and, if even the slightest uneven torque or unequal degradation of individual strands the rated strength is inaccurate and failure is more likely to occur. Pat "Tree Specialist' has observed numerous Rigguy failures stated in an earlier post. Haven't run across even 1 (installation or failure) around Cinci. to concur, but Pat served on a cabling committee and is against them like I am and ofcourse, I believe him.

The anchor is the key IMO. Next is the inspection and do you want to reconsider your 30 year life span considering my valid point (never read this from Mr. Brudi or anyone, just considered this myself) that the cable cannot be inspected within the tree is a huge issue down the road?

SOP/BMP was not a joke Guy just saying that best management practices are (should be) standard operating procedures.

rbtree

The only section needing unspiraling is the part going through the cone and inside the nut. No physical reason that I can imagine would cause any weakening. No sharp edges, no reason for the individual strands to be overly pinched or bent. Wind movements wouldn't tend to intoduce twist/untwist, I don't think, especially since the cable is pressured....save when gusting unweights the cable, which can cause that slapping force that could be capable of breaking the canopy above the cable.
I defer to vet's experience where he says he's seen little or no failures....

That's good....but I'll continue to install dynamic systems...remember, their stretch is quite limited at about6-8%.

treevet

I'd love to see some photos of application scenarios RB. I am a skeptic but not completely close minded on these. I am pretty much closed out on the Rigguy as I feel the spliced, old school is the real upgrade.

rbtree

Dang it, I edited that post twice,and it didn't take...and at my typing rate...I'm frustrated.

What I said was that I'm prolly wrong on my reasoning about the unraveled wire...and have only the one rig-Guy install to go on...

Lot's of failures seen by Pat, eh? Hmm...The system was a bit fiddly to install, especially for the first time....and we used the hub, which has each cable exit equidistant at 120 degrees from each other...but the tree's leads weren't directly inline, so there's a bend in one or two cables where they exit the hub... not good!

rbtree

Not really.....

rbtree

Once installed, it can't unravel more than it was to accomplish the task. It's under pressure, and there's the friction of the nut/cam assembly against the tree........

Prolly I shouldn't have used the word impossible. i suppose their could be untwisting forces applied.....

treevet

If I were king....(of the bmp dudes) I prob would have gone with 1/3rd from the top ....instead of 2/3rds from the bottom. Easier and smaller number to remember although still a very useful statistic for one to keep in their mental toolbox.

Still waiting for your press release substantiating the life span you tentatively quoted as 30 years for stranded cable in an earlier post. Must be off in another state making a girdling root cut.

Tree Machine

C'mon. This is stimulating conversation. Nobody's manhood is at risk here.


I think 'impossible' to unravel, as Rb says, quite frankly, is close to the truth. Given the descriptions you've just read, and the fact that the pre-terminal end of the cable in a wirestop system is tightly encased in wood AND that EHS cable is so freakin stiff, it's just unimaginable to me that unravelling could occur. Still, we can call 'unimaginable' a presumption based on intuitive sense.

However, I HAVE witnessed an unravelling event, though I don't know if it was the cause, or the effect on the failed cable and the unravel was clearly not the point of cable failure, but it did happen, just not with EHS cable. It was common-grade cable, apparently undersized for the job at hand, though I don't know this for certain. When that system was installed, the tree may have been significantly smaller.

This is not to denegrate the process of the old school, cable-splice process. I use this commonly on smaller trees, such as Bradford pears, but that process is only possible with the soft-annealed, common grade cable. It does not work with EHS cable.

Now common grade is nowhere as strong or durable as EHS cable. That is a proven fact. In the recent 11-cable system that I installed, other than the looped wire-rope/turnbuckle/eyebolt failure I pictured earlier, 11 of the 13 other cables in the tree had failed completely. Each and every one of the 11 failed cables were common-grade, traditionally spliced. All the failed ones were broken, not at the splice, but elsewhere down the cable. This suggests that the splice is not the weak link in the system, but the cable itself. I have no idea how this event actually occurred, just the evidence that it did. Have a look for yourself. This cable was untouched by me prior to the picture and the photo itself, I promise, is unretouched.

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Tree Machine

The ANSI A-300 chart is titled Minimum hardware size requirements for cabling trees. The way I read this chart is that 5/16" common grade cable is specified for wood no larger than 8" in diameter, whereas EHS cable of the same diameter is good in wood up to 24" diameter. I will post the chart here so if I am misinterpreting the information, let it be known publicly and I will stand corrected.

My 5/16" diameter auger bit for installing the 5/16" cable is 24" long and I have never installed into wood that big. This means I am always over-sizing the cable for the job at hand. I have zero problem with that, to be quite honest.

Does anyone have a chart showing the tensile strength of common grade vs EHS? I seem to remember the working load limit on EHS was around triple to that of common grade, comparing equal diameter cable.

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Tree Machine

Ahhh, here it is. Note that working load limit, as written in this chart, is assumed as 1/5 of the actual breaking strength.

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treevet

lst off you are intervening while suggesting "manhood" is being threatened. You haven't been around much in the last half year and debut to protect the Treeseer. We are always needling each other recreationally. Sometimes it goes too far but this ain't that time. It is just for fun. I love Guy (most of the time).

You offer evidence that is very unscientific. You find one tree with questionable origin and quality of cable. The implication (correct me if I am wrong) is that EHS has a longer life than common grade because it is stiffer and because these old rusty cables in one tree failed not as a result of splicing.

I have seen very few spliced (common grade, everyone already knows you cannot splice EHS) fail over decades unless they were improperly installed or heavily rusted (with unknown life span) as these cables appear to be. I do not have concern re unravelling as NG mentioned but rather degradation (rust) of the cable in a hidden area, uninspectable whether it is common or EHS. Extra strength does not nec. indicate extra rustproof does it?

I remember you all anti-rigguy I am quite certain just last fall. Sanborn et al must have made a convert of you on your regular forum.

You use the splice cable on smaller trees and reserve the rigguy for the big boys you say? I would expect it to be the other way around with the relatively very small history of this new product/technique.

I would also like to have noticed in your broken cable picture, that likely after many years, this cable/technique can pretty well still be inspected and with the rigguy it cannot right from the onset.

treevet

I just do not see how they can base the hardware accurately on the dia. of the wood. Seems to me that it would be based on how they were situated and what kind of architecture they had and prevailing winds along with that and require a load determining device being used on a windy day to be semi accurate.

Tree Machine

Sorry about the manhood comment. It wasn't meant literally. I coulda worded that differently, or better yet, not at all.

As far as the evidence not being scientific, well, that wasn't implied in any way. The evidence is purely empirical. The origin (the person doing the install?) seems sound. His splices looked real good. As far as quality of cable, well, I think we have to assume commercial grade though again, we don't really know. All I know is what I saw, 11 of 13 cables fully failed and hanging, the remaining two very rusty.

I'm not dogging anyone's methods, or endorsing any one system. Since I use, or have used, all the systems mentioned in here (with the exception of certain brands of dynamics I haven't sourced), I'm coming purely from a place of sharing, not one of teaching. I'm also taking from this anything I can learn. It's an exchange, plain and simple. I will use whatever I can, that I can trust in because I gotta put my name on it and I DON'T ever want another failure like the lag bolt pulling out.

treeseer

Maybe they had to start somewhere, with something measurable, and let pro Judgment take it from there. Like TM I way overspecify mtls.

EHS is more durable due to the zinc coating on the cable. That is why i posted that abstract of that standard. The 30-year timeframe I got from a distributor, plus anecdotal observation of uncoated cable.

Still waiting to hear how the lags are inspected where they seat into the wood; identical issue it seems to me to the cable in the wood. Except maybe that the EHS cable is better-coated, and cannot pull out in the case of advancing heartrot.

I saw multiple other cable failures in the same tree TM is talking about.

O and I agree BMP's should be SOP; hence the suggestion to fork out $5 every 5 years for the updates....less than a penny and a half a day, cmon...

treevet

Very well said Jim.

One point....you would probably get fired from the nationally franchised company I started with for a splice as sloppy in appearance as the one illustrated. It was all about the whole package and professionalism.

treevet

It is true that the embedded lags cannot be inspected as well but my suspicion is that a 5/8 galvanized lag that is forced into an airtight 9/16 or smaller hole with a lag turner will out last a 5/16 coated stranded cable with air space. In either scenario the cause for concern is the lack of ability for inspection leaving some young scientist with a long life and much patience an opening to get his name on a paper in the ISA periodical and do a huge positive for our profession.

treeseer

Good point, that the through holes should be only slightly larger than the cable. re air space, I've seen coring holes close up in an hour, so that cable might be closed in on by wood in short order. Before I venture a suspicion I'd look more closely into the metal issues; I'll ask the rigguy to check in on the thread. Like radar you mean? Or maybe this is a use for the Picus tomograph...I'll ask a rep to check in here too.

treevet

I was thinking more in terms of a dissection of cabled trees upon their demise or failure. This, again, involving my suggestion that a national standard includes the tagging of any cable installation upon completion with relevant info in order for this to work to determine age, mtls and installer of system, etc.. Maybe a data base could be set up recording info desired by BMP Com. to satisfy these questions. This kind of stuff ain't that difficult in this day and age. We gotta get with it to be more respected. We're in the field, they are in the lab and we work together.

Just in passing, having observed many lags taken out of trees over the years by their pulling out or woodsplitter exposing them, usually there is more degrading of the shank than the eye and this may involve the tree's chemicals or compounds. Just a thought.

newguy18

Well Guy,gainsville is about 2 hours from me,i was there on thursday.A big city,versus backwoods live oak.For one there's more money in gainsville,which means most people have decent insurance on thier home,so even if the cable would break,unlikely if properly installed,then insurance will cover it.Around here,mostly low to middle class,lots of seniors on fixed incomes who want no risk what so ever,yes i've removed healthy trees,but not without trying to convince the owners that the tree[s] were safe,i've also had to remove trees that were ready to fail and possibly kill someone.I know,i'm evil in your eyes because 90 percent of my work is removals,instead of cabling.I do wish there was mre of a market for saveing trees,but with most people around here its cut it down or leave it alone.

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treevet

You need to read the standards, bill, then try one on an appropriate small tree. Cables are very labor intensive to install but on a small tree, say maybe in your or nbor's yard you can get the start and open another revenue source.

At your level drilling can be done with a hand brace which I used for many years to drill. As you get more proficient you may want to buy the gas drill and snap it on your saddle like a csaw. Add an aerial lift at times like TM did and it gets relatively much easier.

I do not think the importance of determining the lifespan of the weakest link in the cable system (whichever used) can be over stated. The same reason (high level target) that brought the arb to install the cable could make you lay awake in bed at night when you are uncertain of it's integrity sooner or later.

Like Ekka's school fiasco involving negligence removing deadwood and the resulting death of a child there is not much difference if a huge lead dropped in a graduation event or wedding just because the industry didn't know (negligence?) the life span of the weakest link in the system. A cabled tree is more dangerous than an uncabled (but needing of one) tree because of the throw from accumulated stress by mass over the years upon failure and also because of the potentially unfounded confidence in the arb. allowing a group for example to gather under this tree during the wind because they expected they had purchased protection from the competent arb.

treeseer

Come again?

newguy18

The only tree i ever cabled ended up getting removed and it may seem ridiculous but it was kind of a blow to me.Sure it only took me an hour to complete,but still i was kinda proud of it.Maybe down the road further when i have a bit more experiance i'll start doing more cabling and bracing.Right now i just don't think i have the experiance,or the willignness to accept that kind of liabilaty.

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Tree Machine

As Treevet says, cable installation is very labor intensive, especially if you're a climber. The effort to install one cable is extensive. To add a second cable is much easier because all the gear is up there. This is my strategy. If it's a really big tree, with a target, a just sink a second one. The client is paying for the materials and the additional effort isn't that great.

I charge $175 for a single cable and a special quantity discount price of $350 for two . If the tree is risky, I have no problem charging for two, even though the second is much less effort, given all things considered. Compared to just a $500 deductible, it's a bargain, but the cost and hassle and involvement of a failure start with the deductible. The hassle factor can be huge, other damage not covered by insurance can occur and then of course, God forbid, someone can be injured. And then there's the issue of if the stem fails, the whole tree may be deemed a removal, so they lose that, too. Cables are an easy sell, but they've just gotta be bombproof. The client wants to sleep easy and be confident during storms, as does the Arborist. I just wish I actually LIKED doing cable installs, but honestly, I don't.

Like Treevet, though, there is a certain satisfaction of preserving a tree over whacking the tree. Here's a prime example. I sold this dual cable (two parallel cables securing the same two stems) job a few weeks ago. Look at the beautiful crown. The owners love the tree, it is on the sunward side of the house and the shade is a valuable asset to them. The lady asked me to give a price on taking out some deadwood and pruning.

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Tree Machine

I walked around the tree, giving the normal trunk flare inspection, girdling roots, etc, all was cool. Noticed a hole on the left, clearly a hollow, primo condo housing for a critter.


Looking at the crotch, clearly an issue of included bark. I noticed some discoloration, flux? Looked closer..... aHAAA! The owners had never seen it.



We did the mental exercise, "OK, so what if..." and painted a worst case scenario, then came back to "We're at a prevention stage, not cleaning up an avoidable disaster. Life is good."

So do we have to take down the tree?

If you've got 3 grand laying around and you don't like the tree, then yes.

I like the tree.

OK, $350 and we'll install two high-tensile cables to support this tree so the risk of it failing is greatly diminished.


I can pay you now if you'd like....

And so it goes, another valued tree lives on. I'll be doing this install very soon.


I also scheduled a deep-Winter thinning / mild reduction focussing primarily on the more heavily limbed sunward side. I almost always will do a 'cable now, crown structuring Winter' anytime we have really lanky, overextended leads. The tree I just pictured isn't too bad, just a lot more limbs on the right side than on the left and great many directioned sunward. This is less evident because of the foliage, but if you focus on the limbs alone, you can see the structure issues. The picture doesn't really show it well.

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OutofMytree

Very interesting thread with lots of diverse opinions.

I have no tree cabling experience whatsoever. I am however, a trade qualified sheet metal worker, with years of experience in fixings in a category 1 cyclone zone.

I have read the theoretical discussions over the life of galvanised steel with some interest. Perhaps I can add some fuel to the bonfire. Where it is true that galvanised (zinc coated) steel stays uncorroded for longer than uncoated steel, this is only true whilst the coating is 100% along the entire cable length. Once the coating is breached in ANY part the integrity of the ENTIRE cable is compromised. Key factors which lead to loss of coating are, friction, flex, heat, humidity and electrical activity. The trickiest of these is in fact the last mentioned. Electrical activity in metals is generated by potential voltage differences in different metals. That means, if one part of the system, even a washer for example, is a different metal or even a different alloy of the same metal, then corrosion through voltage differential can and will occur.

Years ago, aluminium pop rivets hit the market. If you have ever used a pop rivet gun you know how tired your hands get after 20-30 or so and professionals can do 500 a day. So aluminium rivets being softer became very popular very fast. Untill roofing became airborne in high winds and the cause was traced back to corrosion due to voltage differential. The sheets in question were installed 18 months prior to failure.

My point here is not that I expect people use aluminium, but rather that corrosion is the enemy of steel and can come from the most unlikely of sources. There is no substitute for annual or even bi-annual inspection of steel cables in high stress situations.

Zinc is far less flexible than steel. So places where the cable is bent,spliced or frayed is the 1st place that the coating will crack where the cable simply flexed. Look there first. It greatly concerns me that parts of a fixing system are hidden by the trees own growth within a short period of time.

In australia, when an EWP undergoes its 10 year inspection, all structural welds must be xrayed to confirm they are not deformed or damaged in any way. It seems to me that a cable system in a tree will be under strees from many directions over time so its integrity must, by default, be of greater concern than a parallel MIG weld on a steel boom.

I recently asked for input on cabling I had seen and was unsure of. Although the installation of the cable was suspect the materials were first class. The cables and fittings were all stainless steel. Other than cost, is there any reason why stainless steel cable is not used in trees? I ask because the life of stainless steel exposed to all elements is far in excess of any metal commonly used including aluminium and zinc coated steel.

Once again, I have no tree cabling experience. I raise these points for discussion and dissection rather than argument.

treevet

Good plan installing a cable for insurance against further splitting and failure and installing another cable for insurance against failure of the first cable and allso giving additional support. Hackberry is VERY heavy and tends to decay from poor compartmentalization. They often fail here when they are giant because of the decay in conjunction with the great strength of the wood fibers. They accumulate massive decay, and mass and then it is time to squash an entire garage or carriage house.

Looks like a real nice neighborhood and no need to be shy with conserving their money in an important situation such as this. Almost looks like a screw rod or 2 might be in order, but also looks like the lead is somewhat "socketed" in the other one.