Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable

newguy18

Personally i don't think i'd use the rigguy on anything but small ornamental trees,then again the only tree i've ever cabled got cut down=(.Homeowner got crafty with a chainsaw.

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old schooler

Tree Machine

Well, thank you for your opinion, and especially the honesty in your experience.

I did a hub setup just this last week. It was a silver maple whose triplet trunk had a defined crack, but not to the point of being separated. The learning experience on this one was, set the cables on two of the three stems and then the hub for all three, then the final stem to tension and set, in this order:
Stem one, stem two, hub, hub, hub, stem three. Since the hub is centered between all three stems, you're out in space. This almost definitely requires a manlift or bucket.

We had just done a MONSTER silver maple the day earlier, requiring 11 cables (what a day!). This was to completely replace the 13 cables that were mishmashed in there by two previous treeguys. 11 were either broken or defunct, and the two intact were undersizde in diameter and rusted badly.

Part of the contract was that the homeowner was to rent a 55 foot lift for us as part of the deal. After finishing his job, the next day we did this triple-stem hub job (my first hub experience), and then a third tree requiring a more conventional dual-cable connecting two sets of opposing stems.

It was like cable-palooza weekend.

Here's a picture part way through the process,

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Eric Frei

I believe, according to the documents I read that boxing is better.

Diagram attached, which method is going to mean less movemnt and be stronger?

I vote boxing and so will most engineers.

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newguy18

Yep,i gotta agree with Dave and Eric,the box no matter how you look at it will always be stronger.

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old schooler

Tree Machine

I'm not going to disagree with that. The concept is, half as many holes are drilled.


On the 11-cable job, there were the rusted and broken cables from treeguy #1 a long time ago, then treeguy # 2, more recently, who went to the local hardware store to get his cabling gear using homeowner grade turnbuckles, ungalvanized wire rope, cable clamps and short eye bolts. Atrocious. The homeowner was just not comfortable with it, felt it might be inadequate, then one of the eye bolts pulled open during a storm and the cable dropped and hung (see the picture). Fortunately the stem did not fail.

The second image is of the (mostly) intact eyebolt, I shot it to show the size the guy was working with.

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Eric Frei

TM,

With Rigguy you have to drill right through the stem, with lags it's only a partial wound ... what's the pro's and con's then?

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Tree Machine

A smaller hole to begin with, I suppose. J-lags just require a bigger bore.

If there is already decay detected, through-bolts are suggested (ANSI). Through bolts are generally a larger diameter than the 5/16" through-cable commonly used.

J-Lags of 1/2" diameter are "not acceptable" in branches beyond 8" in diameter. Larger 5/8" diameter are not acceptable in wood beyond 10".
Beyond 15" diameter J-lags are not acceptable, period. This is information taken from the ANSI A300, part 3, table A-1.

The through-cable has the advantage of minimum hole diameter, 5/16", acceptable up to a full 24" wood diameter. In the same diameter wood, where J-lags are not acceptable by industry standards, a full 1/2" (~13 mm) through-bolt is the minimum requirement. A through cable, the hole is 5/16" (~8 mm). So you would ask yourself at this point, is it less invasive to drill a 13 mm hole, or an 8 mm hole?

Tree Machine

Also, let me share that I am a big fan of dynamic systems in trees that are not humongous and that do NOT have a present crack or verifiable crotch defect.

This is just my personal approach, I rarely will cable a tree that does not have a current defect. And I rarely cable small trees. The trees I cable are because they have a present crack or split and need a static support system to keep that defect from opening and closing in the wind, or the tree gets whacked.

I will assess the risk and if the client is willing to assume a diminished risk (but a continued level of risk, nonetheless), I'll have him or her sign off on that, and we cable and preserve the tree. Big trees with definite crotch splits (and large populations of squirrels around) is just not a place for dynamic systems.

Just know that I understand the difference between dynamic and static systems and have some degree of experience with both.

I have also had an experience with a lag pulling out and landing a tree stem on a house. That is a very uncomfortable phone call I don't wish on anyone .

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treevet

Few comments here. In support of Rigguy, I believe EHS cable is used instead of spliceable, lower strength common grade. In contradiction, I feel the anchor is much more stable in the splice than the deadend.

"rusted and broken cables" see them all the time. We need some mfctr. feedback on life span on dif types of cables under loads that has been researched by them. We should demand it.

Homeowner"s eyebolts are inadequate and should never be purchased. An eyebolt should be cast, galvanized and one piece and of appropriate diameter with approp. washers (round). The ends after install. should be sledgehammered to prevent the nut from walking off.

I met people pushing the dynamic cable system when they first hit here when I was at a shigo seminar around "93. I just don't see it. It is smoke and mirrors IMO. We got hit much much worse than you did with the storm last month Jim. Talked to a friend of mine from Indy yesterday. Dyna. cable systems would be littering the landscape if they were in trees here as we had 80 mph winds sustained for 6 solid hours. If you want MOVEMENT to be allowed,....why not just install an old climbing line (7k) strength and put a bolen at each end? Same effect......The rope/line catches when nec. and is slack otherwise. Don't give me "it is a slow stop" as it has to come to a full stop sometime and at that time will have similar compression of conductive tissue.

Sometimes "old school" is just better. The reason of "it is easier and faster" should not even enter the discussion.

treevet

I would also like to contend, TM, that there are half the holes in this hub set up with the rigguy. You have made a hole through both sides of the stem and interupted conductive tissue with both holes. Also Shigo had an issue with deeper penetrating holes (researched). I think lags are underused because of current opinions of them. Common sense (arb's) just has to prevail when/if using them.

I love to cable. It saves trees. It is a black and white "benefit" as opposed to the guesswork of many treatments. And it is a creative process that is challenging of the intellect.

treeseer

TM I read the standards a bit differently--lags in sound wood only, 33.5.6. No lags in wood over 10", Table A-1.

Box is "used only when minimal direct support is needed." 33.6.2.3 Hubs used as a last resort, 33.6.2.4, so Ekka's gut agrees with the authorities. attached is apic of a creative use of hub and dynamic.

Dynamic has its place but the europeans went way overboard on it imo and with all respect to detter et al.

EHS is a lot stronger and a lot harder to work with. I buy it exclusively. The zinc coating adds long life.Time is money, and less gear and less steps means a more certain outcome for all but highly experienced vets, perhaps. Certainly $ is part of the discussion, but I agree it should come after safety is established.

Thanks for posting TM--readers of TCI magazine will see your fine work in a few weeks--visit tcia.org to see, and I do wish that despite your desire for low profile I had gotten a pic of you at work.

I have 2 cabling jobs for big cities pending; one asked for a guarantee so I wrote Item #11--comments?

"When cabling was proposed for a cracked sweetgum tree in another municipality, the Public Works Director asked if the contractor would provide a guarantee. While it is common sense that trees cannot be guaranteed against failure, it seemed reasonable to guarantee what could be controlled. Item 11 is that contractor’s guarantee, which was also attached to the disclaimer with the Thoburn Oak report:
11. “The materials and workmanship involved in the cabling system are guaranteed to be free of substantial defects. The Extra High Strength (EHS) cable shall comply with ASTM A475, Standard Specification for Zinc-Coated Steel Wire Strand, so it resists corrosion and can last 30 years or more. The fasteners shall be manufactured of stainless steel to resist corrosion. The design and installation of the system is guaranteed to comply with the ANSI A300 (Part 3) -2006 Standard Practices for Supplemental Support Systems and the 2007 edition of the ISA Best Management Practices for Tree Support. The tree and the support system should be inspected every year.” (For most trees, calling for inspection every three or five years may be more appropriate. )

btw Ekka, the ISA does an excellent job with the BMP's, and TCIA does a great job with ANSI A300--2 good organizations moving the industry in good directions. Membership is open, even to the congenitally cranky folsk like us.

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treeseer

1. Shigo had an issue with wider holes too. Cite your page # and we can have a duel of citations.

2. Lags are used less now mostly because they were misused in the past.

3. Common sense MUST be in tune with standards and bmp's to be reliable. Got your 2006/7 copies yet Dave?
I totally agree, and the intellect reaches farther when it is combined with knowledgeable colleagues, in their writing and in person when we are fortunate enough to learn with our peers as I have with TM (and hope someday to learn with treevet)

Eric Frei

I must agree, that looking over a lot of orgs ISA seem to stack up the better one.

I just checked out the TCAA here and their members list was on their website, one of which I shot video of with 5 men no PPE at all, threatened to let the tyres of my truck down!

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treevet

In case you haven't noticed, Guy, we're all learning right here with our peers on this awesome forum.

You make a mistake here and your ass is handed to you. You make a mistake on these committees and it is business as usual (share the blame). I'd take this select group of top arbs. on TW (you included of course) over some obscure group thrown together on the odd occassion generating papers that have to evolve as they are amended. Just my personal opinion and not related to the masses.

Eric Frei

Sort of like part of the furniture us lot.

I read all this cabling stuff and like it, just dont do it here, you guys are right into it but we haven't had the sort of storms you get and our trees are tough.

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rbtree

I disagree. I have 11 years of experience installing Cobra in the PNW, which includes some mighty big trees. Almost all are the 2 ton Cobra which was too small for many of the applications. The only failures I've had were three, two where the tree or guyed section broke below the install, and one where I did a hokey splice to achieve needed length-and needed 4 ton, which is now in the tree (plural, as a 28 inch dbh cherry is supporting a 20 inch willow which is growing out over a lake.)

The dynamic nature of these installs is one of their best features. By allowing the tree to move, it reduces shock loading on the system, AND allows the tree to develop proper reaction wood.

You might enjoy talking to Erik Brudi for a while about dynamic systems......or check around, there are many many qualified arborists who are sold on dynamic.

Also, an old climb line is far from kosher..except as a loose loop around codom conifers......It needs the chafe tubing, expansion insert, and growth loop of a proper system.

treeseer

Your opinion would be much enlightened if you studied the structure and protocol of the standards and bmp committees. They do need work but they are neither obscure or irregular. Re evolving, isn't that a GOOD thing?

O and /eric you say you never had a codom fail?

rb thanks for your dynamic interlude; the more natural sway we preserve the better, in uncracked trees.

treevet

I figure my approx. 2500 cables installed over 40 years in predominantly large trees might trump your 11 years of experience. We have very severe storms and I have not ever had a report of a static cable failure to date. This includes the hurricane with 6 hours of sustained approx 75 plus mph winds last month. I have had numerous people tell me they watched their trees break all over the yard while my cables held.

We are installing dynamic systems to develop reaction wood for what? If the static system is made to not fail what is the reason for the reaction wood? It will offer a good fight prior to failing in an extreme wind event or ice loading, etc. Your rubber band system will allow co doms to move naturally in an artistic way just before they fail? Trees are meant to be in the woods and be excurrent by natures design. You RB and other rubber band men like Treeseer are trying to create something unnatural (a large decurrent tree that moves around in the wind until it reaches an impasse and fails. My static cables allow the tree to move as a unit and one would have to look into the "crystal ball" (a much loved analogy on this forum) to know just how much sway that tree will take before the big crash.

Tell Eric Brudi, whoever he is I said Hi. Chafe tubing, expansion insert, growth loop.......sold to mr. RB tree. You ever buy any Amway products.

treevet

Committees generate a consensus which to my way of thinking is another name for a watered down opinion.

Why is there so much conjecture if they are doing their jobs. Where is the independent research. There is decades of practical research by arbs installing successful static systems and most failures can be traced to installer error. It would be nice to think in a perfect world that all new arb products are generated to improve the treatment and make it, again, easier and faster to complete. Not true!..............Most of the time it all based on making bucks. Not a bad thing but this is why it is not a bad thing to be skeptical and not join the flock of sheeple. Old arbs have seen a myriad of schemes and scams run down the road and been glad not to have jumped on the band wagon. Where did those stupid "pre-formed cable loops" that were all the rage a few years ago go? How many Dutch Elm Disease treatments have we seen over the decades making entrepeneurs wealthy and us embarrased?

treevet

Since this a thread on Rigguy, questions for advocates such as Guy, etc.

How does the arb. do the annual inspection of the system when after a few years the anchor point (the most important part of the installation) will be engulfed by woundwood and obscured from vision. It may degrade more quickly in this location and environment.

How does the arb. inspect the segment of cable enclosed in the stem and obscured from vision. This portion may degrade more quickly in this location and environment.

Guy, Given your 30 year (non scientific guestimate) life span of this cable much is left to "hope and good luck" when doing these incomplete partial inspections.

Also, wonder if the manufacture of the stranded cable that may be able to give a more definete life span to their cable (but they do not, nor does the SOP committee) would accept the altering of their product where it is separated at the wire stop in this system? It would very likely degrade much more quickly in this application.

newguy18

I don't like the fact that you have to part the ends in order to install it,its unlikely but might subject the cable to unraveling.Then again i just prune and remove,no real market for cableing around here.

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old schooler

Eric Frei

Great question.

Would start getting expensive to x-ray them all.

You could only assess what you see, what is encased in the tree you'd have no idea about.

I'd say, experience counts most, dissecting the various failed cables and then seeing what caused it, the approximation of time means replacement sooner than that date.

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rbtree

Impossible....

rbtree

Reckon you don't get out much if you haven't heard of Brudi.......


I've only been working in this industry for 35 years, so I don't know much.....


and all we have out here is little pecker poles...and no wind.....


You can have your opinion, others have theirs...also backed up with scads of practical experience. Main thing I've learned as I've gotten older is that there's always more to learn......ways to be enlightened, adapt, etc. etc...

open minds are great minds....

Eric Frei

Erk Brudi is the guy.

How hollow - pull test - stability tests - Wessolly - Brudi - Sterken - Coder

I cant comment on cables (insufficient experience), but it gets pretty busted up where Rbtree lives as well.

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treeseer

The same way an arb inspects the portion of the lag or other fastener enclosed in the stem and obscured from vision. Don't know but it's worth a look. Don't you use it too? Meanwhile I referenced the standard and found that we are using the highest-rated material in the industry:

ASTM A475
Abstract

This specification covers five grades of zinc-coated, steel wire strand, composed of a number of round, steel wires, with four weights of zinc coatings, suitable for use as guys, messengers, span wires, and for similar purposes. The five grades covered are as follows: utilities, common, Siemens-Martin, high-strength, and extra high-strength. The base metal shall be steel made by any commercially accepted steel making process and of such quality and purity that, when drawn to the size of wire specified and coated with zinc, the finished strand and the individual wires shall be of uniform quality and have the properties and characteristics as prescribed in this specification. Strands shall have a left lay and all wires shall be stranded with uniform tension and be sufficiently close. The finished strand shall meet the requirements according to the specified approximate weight per unit length of strand against minimum breaking strength, elongation, and ductility of steel. The zinc-coated wire shall be capable of being wrapped in a close helix without cracking or delaminating the zinc coating. Joints in the wires composing the strand shall be either the brazed-lap type or electric-butt-welded type shall be coated with zinc after completion so that the joints have protection from corrosion equivalent to that of the zinc-coated wire itself.

This abstract is a brief summary of the referenced standard. It is informational only and not an official part of the standard; the full text of the standard itself must be referred to for its use and application. ASTM does not give any warranty express or implied or make any representation that the contents of this abstract are accurate, complete or up to date.

1. Scope

1.1 This specification covers five grades of zinc-coated, steel wire strand, composed of a number of round, steel wires, with four weights of zinc coatings, suitable for use as guys, messengers, span wires, and for similar purposes.

1.2 The five grades covered are as follows:

1.2.1 Utilities,

1.2.2 Common,

1.2.3 Siemens-Martin,

1.2.4 High-Strength, and

1.2.5 Extra High-Strength.

1.2.6 Minimum breaking strengths of strand for each grade are described in Section .

1.3 The four weights of zinc coatings are: Class 1 and Classes A, B, and C. Minimum weights of zinc coatings are described in Section .

1.4 The values stated in inch-pound units are to be regarded as the standard. The values given in brackets are for information only.


2. Referenced Documents

A90/A90M Test Method for Weight [Mass] of Coating on Iron and Steel Articles with Zinc or Zonc-Alloy Coatings
A902 Terminology Relating to Metallic Coated Steel Products
B6 Specification for Zinc

SOP Whaaa??? Sounds like you have not spent the $5 to stay current with the industry if you do not even know the name of the guide.

"very likely degrade much more quickly" Those are interesting guesses. And Ekka and rb are right; if you have not heard of Tree Statics just look. Time marches on; cmon along!

Eric Frei

Those BMP's are a great idea!

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newguy18

How is it impossible?

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old schooler

treevet

You quoted me there Guy and ridiculed my associating the terms Standard operating procedure with best management practices but did not address the question/concern (in the quote you excerpted) that is also not addressed in all the specs you typed regarding the separation of strands affecting the integrity of the cable??????

treevet

PS....ain't this fun?