Rigguy Wirestop fasteners for cable

treevet

I am not how the tone of above sounded. It is not some kind of a challenge. I am really interested in knowing what I should about this system. I can see it with some situations were targets are lacking or the failure threat is marginal.

Tree Machine

To sum up treevet's statement,
When you're dealing with the huge tonnages aloft, and the ferocity and forces that mother nature can throw at you......

Ice storms can be wicked. Treevet got an early, wet October snow a few years ago before the trees had shed their leaves, I remember, it walloped you.

We get tornados. My place is reknowned in the Spring with storms that produce downdrafts, just a fierce, vertical downward punch from out of the sky.



Treevet and I live in a setion of the US called the central hardwood belt, it has been here since the beginning of time, and so has been the wildlife.


Squirrels here have been around forever and are rodents and chew whatwever they find novel to chew on. Around here they like electric line insulation, for some reason, and maple and hackberry.

I set a temporary 'cable' fashioned out of 11,000 lb tensile stable braid. Within one month they had chewed completely through it, not just chewed at it. It was severed.

They're like that. Here's a shot from yesterday's pile of brush about to be chipped (although off-topic, slightly). Thes furry buggers are a real and true threat to dynamic systems, and I imagine wherever there are squirrels there would be that possibility. If you have a large stem on the house, the client doesn't care if it was weather, squirrels, your bad splice, ultraviolet radiation.

If the system you install fails, it could come back to haunt you. In fact, it will almost certainly come back to haunt you.

Attached Thumbnails

 

newguy18

I remember when i lived in akron a squirrel got inside a transformer by my grandma's house and the whole meighborhood was without power for about 3 hours.Those squirrels up there are a menace.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

treevet

[QUOTE=Tree Machine;23583]

Ice storms can be wicked. Treevet got an early, wet October snow a few years ago before the trees had shed their leaves, I remember, it walloped you.

Right, TM, but last year in Feb we got hit with a major ice storm, 1 of 3 I ve been involved in my 38 years of tree service. It gave us 3 months of non stop storm damage 6 days a week. The first day I was out clearing driveways so people could could go to work and it was like a war zone (been there too) as big snaps, cracks and wooshes and huge crashes as limbs rained all around you. You d have to go in and get out as fast as possible. It was extremely profitable but way dangerous, too.

A cable story out of this. HO Calls and a whole side of a tree was on her house. Showed up and you could see the dark wood in the split that meant it had been split for a while and cable would have corrected the problem.

It was in the teens and limb was lying on 4 inches of snow and other end was still attached to stem about 40 feet in air. It was behind house in deck and unreachable with my picker and/or crane. Big problem was tree was encased in ice about 3 to 4" thick. No climbing from ground was happening. Decided to leave until ice melted.

We waited a few days then ice started melting. Problem was ice was still thick on tree and weight of limb, melting snow and damage from impact was allowing water to just pour inside the house in torrents.

Got a 120-ft sub crane, and it was cool. He couldn t boom me over tree and down to crotch as canopy was in way. I hooked up to ball and he aimed it at crotch I wanted in and he kind of injected me in the canopy of the tree. I never dropped more than 2 feet below the shiv and he boomed out the full extent while feeding cable and put me right on the limb ready to tie in and then disconnect lanyard from ball. What a magician! I tied in, and yes, I was wearing spikes in a live tree, but these were extraordinary circumstances. The melting snow was flooding the house and things were being destroyed. Besides, ice was so thick, I was barely entering the wood with spikes.

Anyway, I tied in, slid down, hooked a choker, he tensioned, I cut leader off, and sat back and watched him boom entire lead in air as I was worried it would break loose and crush me. Big buck$ on that job Big fun, too.

treeseer

you gotta tell that one to andy detter, the guy who wrote the german standard that is based on dynamic. he said there was only one case in the workd reported.

you are sure it was skwerl?

Tree Machine

Great story, Treevet.

I remember that ice storm.

Me and Treevet are west-to-east of each other about 300 K, but almost on the same latitude, TV is south a bit of TM.

We see these ice storms coming from the west. Treevet's storm had me freaked out. Ice storms are fairly rare events, but when all the conditions line up, they can be really bad. Treevet's was a whopper. It missed me, the northern edge being 50 K south of here (WHew!)

We haven't had a decent ice storm in 12 years here, which means the trees have grown to proportions, unbridled by any major natural forces. Lots and lots and lots of trees with overextended leads, full, lengthy stems, elm trees so dense with peripheral canopy.... When an ice storm hits here, like Treevet says, it will be a warzone.

For now, I try to identify trees that are at risk of splitting and install a cable. A lot of times the tree will really tell you whether or not it's predisposed. Sometimes it's just plain obvious, numbers of clues the tree can give, all stirred and poured into a glass. This is our cabling solution..

treevet

Yeah TM, those ice storms do correct Mother Nature"s (God"s IMO) intended structure with wild abandon. Trees were meant to grow in an excurrent form in the woods (except for edge trees I guess). But if they all grew in the woods and in that structure, who would need an Abhorist ().

Looks like you and me ain t getting much done today TM. Snow and rain most of day. I bought my Hi Ranger at Altec in Indy. What a great town! Couldn t win the Super Bowl again this year, tho. What s up with that.

Tree Machine

Either that, or a rat and we really don't see much of them in our hardwoods. Raccoons don't gnaw, but we have a lot of those, too. They find material for their nests, though.

I don't have pics of where squirrels have chewed the insulation on utility lines, but here's a couple pics of yesterday's cleanup. The Arborists who did the work said they've never seen anything like it. I said, "Hang around awhile."

I doubt this rodent behavior is isolated. Rodents gnaw, it is what defines their species, this, sentence #1 taken from Wikipedia (see Rodentia)

Rodentia is an order of mammals also known as rodents, characterised by two continuously-growing incisors in the upper and lower jaws which must be kept short by gnawing.

My thought is the furry buggers used my high molecular weight polyethylene as bedding for their young ones.

Attached Thumbnails

       

Tree Machine

Attached Thumbnails

       

newguy18

Squirrels are only good for eating.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

Eric Frei

Thanks Jim, we dont get much like that here, occasionally cockatoos will tear the bark off around crotches but nothing like that.

Have to soak the rope in some ratsack or rodent repellant. LOL Not that it would last long.

Hey Bill, do people really eat skwerls?

__________________

Treelore

as mentioned before most of the cables that I have installed has been hardware but I advocate hollow braid cable. I draw the line at installing any measure of support if truly adverse conditions are part of the equation because as most assesment methods will attest all bets are off. Sound trees fail in adverse conditions so this is never my aim. Cabling and bracing in my opinion is to prolong the life of an otherwise desirable tree. The pest component is a tricky one but outside of that the use of either has been on a merit based decision. Generally with sound limb and structure I will use drill through but when the tree has decayed significantly or sound wood is not present at attachment point I will use Hollow braid. If cabling trees without leaf I will always leave slack in the rope so as leaf mass creates necessary tension. A tree system is dynamic and trees lay wood according to this stimuli. Preventing movement affects the whole tree and prevents reaction wood from forming. so a tense cable system is not a good course of action. If the components of a tree are in a failure scenario then failure is inevitable but prolonging failure is possible. These are the parameters under which I will install cable devices. The moment a cable is installed the owner has admitted the tree has biomechanical constraints and accepts the risk. There is a large difference between cabling and fall arrest systems and the two are often confused. Needless to say every situation is different and TM and TV are using the available knowledge and applying them to their site specific conditions. I have no problems with either devices.... It is nice not to wound the tree when possible but this doesn't fit all scenarios.

Tree Machine

Wow, I want to read that over and over. I am aligned with all of that, though to be honest, I never considered the leafless aspect.


Whereas your focus is mine is the same, except that tree has either 1) a major defect or 2) predisposition to a major defect or failure.

Some trees just scream, "Cable me or.... " Sometimes the clues are so blatant. A cable can save that tree from otherwise inevitable failure and likely takedown.

My job is to save trees. Dynamic also has it's place in my arsenal. It would be in trees that squirrels don't chew, or nest in, like Bradford Pears.

When I have huge forces (tonnages of the tree itself + weather forces) + a defect + a target, that takes on a different cabling strategy.

Treelore

agreed TM, Obviously I would not consider cabling a tree that does not require it, so the "defect" ( I prefer to use constraint) is a given. For the record I am in opposition to words like defect and flaw when talking about trees. I prefer the term "biomechanical constraints" because as you pointed out they are an area that has a predisposition to failure but failure is not a certainty. So it is simply a constraint on the system but not a flaw or a defect. Much the same with humans, certain brain injuries or or limb constraints may lead you to believe that a person cannot function correctly yet it is proven time and again that success often comes from these predicaments. Loose terminology I know but such words paint pictures.

newguy18

yep people eats squirrels myself included,its been a couple years and our squirells don't get very big it takes 2 or 3 to fill you around here.they're great fried or grilled.i'd soak the rope in d-con myself.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

treeseer

Interesting. I've been accused of oversemanticizing when splitting those kind of hairs, but I never considered excising "defect" from my tree vocabulary.

I'm likin that...

Tree Machine

Me too.
I like the term. That way we could call a cable a "Constraint Restraint."

On estimates I put it out there in a language that can not be misinterpreted or misunderstood. Potential for failure.


There is no speculation as to what the failure is, what damage might result or what the end result might be forseen. Just that something (bad or expensive) could happen. But we DO talk about that in a verbal exercise I call 'worst-case scenario, just for fun.'

In concluding, I enter an agreement with the client, "OK, we both know this tree has a potential for failure."
agreed
"The nice thing is, right now it's just a potential. The worst-case scenario, or anything approaching it, can be prevented..... for $175.
Pretty cheap option, given the alternative."


Sold.

Treelore

I like it TM.
I try not to go with fear tactics. The more we learn about trees the more we can see constraints that a tree system may have but for the larger part they don't fail!! Too many people have been scared into large trees being removed from around their properties through monetary gain and inexperienced tree companies. So now we have a stigma that is hard to shake! Wherever possible I use terms that highlight a dysfunction but not cause clients to become fearful of large trees. I believe our education has gotten us to a point where we can prove to people they have nothing to fear.

Tree Machine

BRAVO!!! You are the man. What insight!

Not selling by fear, but by accurate information.


I'll often start out by saying, "Now, I'm not trying to scare you, but as a homeowner, you need to have solid information about this tree. That is my job."

Then it may go like this, "The tree gives us clues, we need to interpret those clues to formulate a plan. Our goal is two-fold; preserve the tree, diminish the risk to people and property. Assess the risks, prevent potential catastrophe."

The green laser is a powerful tool, really punctuates an in-person assessment.

Damage prevention is an easy sell, especially when just a run of damaged gutter ALONE can equal the cost of the install. Or when the cost of cable installation is 1/3 of the insurance deductable.

Or compare what the cost might be of a failed stem, on just the cleanup of that stem alone, not the damage to the neighbor's house, the hassle, removal of the rest of the tree.....

Ususally the cost of cable is less than the cost of the cleanup of a failed stem alone.

So no fear, just focus on the benefits of prevention.

treeseer

you guys are so on the right wavelength--well mine anyway. this first from a writeup of the consultants' convention:

Decision Analysis Society Litigation is nothing to fear. Losing is the only thing to worry about. By using the same kind of systematic process prescribed for tree detectives, and learning with their peers, consulting arborists can fearlessly manage the most challenging trees.

And this from page 28 here: http://www.treecareindustry.org/PDFs...Feb08_web1.pdf

This is a starting point for 2 followup articles: one for isa focusing on support--Tree Machine on board--, and one focused on working to australian standards in general (or support in particular)--who wants a piece of that one?

Applying ANSI can make you an expert in the eyes of clients and authorities, such as your town, county or state government. ANSI standards are also recognized as the ultimate authority in the United States civil court system. In our country it seems that anyone can be sued for anything, so there?s no use in worrying about going to court, only in losing! There?s no need to fear losing a lawsuit if you have read the standards and know your work complies. A tree ?hazard? is defined as a level of tree risk greater than the owner is willing to tolerate. ?Hazard trees? are managed by lessening?reducing, mitigating--the risk they pose, either by removal or by arboricultural treatments, to a level that the owner accepts. Reducing or supporting defective branches, propping or bracing defective trunks, guying trees with defective root systems; all these and more arboricultural activities can be specified and practiced free of liability concerns, if they are ANSI-compliant, standard operating procedures.

Tha ANSI A300 (Part 3) standard on Supplemental Support Systems has also evolved to embrace new procedures. Propping is now included, providing general guidance on the methods and materials for carrying out this ancient practice. Props supported by the ground, constructed with strong and durable materials and fastened adequately while allowing for future growth can be ANSI-compliant. This puts a powerful new instrument into our toolbox of standard operating procedures. Guying trees to the ground is commonly done when young trees are staked, but how many of us have guyed trees over 10? dbh? If the ground anchor is sufficiently strong and at least two-thirds the height distance away, attached securely in the top half of the tree, and aligned with the direction of the pull to avoid side loading, guying large trees can be ANSI-compliant. As with cabling branches to stems, the hard part seems to be the materials and methods used to fasten the cable to the tree.
According to Table A-1, lag bolts are not acceptable in branches over ten inches in diameter. Cabling in general has gotten a bad reputation because of catastrophic failures that resulted from lags installed lower than the recommended two-thirds distance, in branches too large. Dynamic cables made of synthetic material avoid wounding while allowing movement needed for the tree to reinforce itself with reaction wood, but the 2006 standard only gives this method a brief mention. Through-hardware avoids lag failure, but installing a bolt through the branch wounds the tree much more. Fortunately, according to 32.42, we are not limited to bolts and rods. Another option is to drill the hole through the branch only wide enough to fit the cable itself, and secure it on the other end with wire-stop fasteners. These fasteners are composed of two individual pieces, installed with a wire cutter and pliers, and described more fuly at Rigguy, Inc.. Like dynamic systems, wirestops are not covered in detail in the 2006 edition, but if you clearly define the objectives, and follow the manufacturer?s recommendations, installing these newer systems can be ANSI-compliant. If they work well for you, document that experience and submit a comment to your group?s representative to the ANSI committee, so the next edition of the support standard will be more complete.

Tree Machine

So that's the lowdown from the inside. Thanks for bringing the ANSI element to the front on that. Compliance with industry standards is what we reach for as industry professionals. We're not cowboys and renegades. We're a community of fellow professionals given voluntary guidelines by a leadership body (in America) called ANSI.

It is good to know that wirestops, if installed correctly are approved by ANSI as a method of mitigating risk.

I didn't know that. I thought the wirestop method was too new to have even reached the shores of ANSIville. Thank you, Treseer.


As for the last part, They are asking who? We the Arborists, terminal end users?All I have are pictures and video, no test data, nothing scientific or quantitative (except wound-size calculations), just empirical data. I document through images, but am not conducting research of any sort.

That make any contribution of mine rather topical. you could say I'm one chapter ahead of the students on this one.

I would ask of Treevet and other more deeply experienced cable guys to stay in. You have so much more experience than I. We can walk through these doors together.

treeseer

It's me who's asking folks to submit their experience--I wrote that. We are ALL invited inside, that's the point. As for "they", it's stated that they are open to input, and it is actively sought during public comment periods, which is during draft review, at the end of the 5-year cycle.

that's the whole reason for documenting your experience, so they'll have to include it in 2011. I feel like part of the leadership body on the pruning standards--i made a dozen comments last time and they used most of them. We can all be cells-organs-limbs in that leadership body, if we step up.

Ya gotta love america--despite its current leaders.

Tree Machine

Inside.... ANSI?

You wrote....

Are you....?


I need to take a moment to get clear. Now Treeseer, I know you're a Board Certified Master Arborist, I read your published writings that ISA sends through their publication (love Detective Dendro) and that you are also an Arborist business owner and get out there and do what we Arborists do. And you're a certified Consulting Arborist. I also know you're a mitigation specialist and over the last 5 or 6 years, you've been one of my richest resources on the subject through the writings you contribute to the profession of Arboriculture.

Just to have you here at Treeworld is very much a privledge, but getting back to the question, did you say or imply that you're in the planning room at ANSI? and you want us to help you write the standards of this new method amidst our actually applying the cables, here and now? in real time?

So anyone attending this thread can contribute?

Am I getting this right?

treeseer

Good grief. Let's do a check: "We are ALL invited inside, that's the point."

ANSI is democratic--it is US, if we advocate for the truth, and patiently persuade those committee members who, shall we say, are not inspired to rock the boat. Most are in by seniority, and decide the merits of suggetstons by doing role-playing exercises. We can grab the keel and steer it anywhere the truth, and our advocacy for it, will go.

We just have to write our arguments very well, and back them up with good science. Hence my push for documentation--observation is science!

No, I'm not on the committee. But i didn't have to be, to work in some of my views on the pruning standard. I just had to be right, and persistent, and persuasive, and patient. Some stuff did not get in that I think is important, but oh well maybe next time, can't win em all. Same will happen with the support standard, if I get the right support, eh TM? .

God bless democracy. How are standards developed in Australia? You guys get Public Comment periods, same as us, roight?

This has become a

Tree Machine

This one was unfortunate.

The caller said "Hi Treeguy.... remember the tree you told me needed a cable...."

Attached Thumbnails

 

treeseer

sad case; a small amount for a cable not spent vs. a great amount spent for cleanup--was the other trunk viable? and of course the loss of the asset.

Drouin Tree Service

Great thread guys.Bravo Treeseer

__________________

Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

kiwi_tree_steve

+1 im all for the use of COBRA or GEFA type non invasive bracing systems, these systems are preventative maintainance systems, COBRA is my choice because of its shock absorbing features, and ease of use

however, steel cable has its place, and i would use it for guying and in a situation of a torn limb being reattached along with bolts.

rbtree

Great thread, guys.

I also prefer dynamic cabling products for most all situations.

We recently installed the wirestop "Rig-Guy" system in a tri-dominant western red cedar that had moved apart a bit. The hub system was slick. System was fiddly to install, due the need to apply some pressure to keep the cams tight.

treevet

Why not box the three leads in and forget the hub?