positioning

skankpile

Hey guys,

New here, and I'm more into the climbing aspect. I admire how the arborists move through the canopy, and I'm discovering its much more difficult than it looks from the ground.

I find myself in the tree and want to move around, but I dont feel comfortable trying to move horizontal through the canopy. I'm using single rope technique, and I'm wondering whats the best way to learn positioning as I'm finding little to no information about it?

newguy18

Personally for most trees you'll ever climb,drt is the way to go,here watch these videos and you'll get the idea.
http://www.treeworld.info/f7/spikele...k-etc-897.html
jim1nz and his mate footlocking @ 12m
Full on video of a removal ... HUGE, 2nd most viewed in my collection

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old schooler

skankpile

right.. I've got no problem getting up and down from the tree, building, bridge, wall etc... and using srt I use 2 ascenders one up top with a pulley, and one on the foot (with loop form the top ascender to the other foot), and I inch worm up the rope pretty effortlessly with the through an edelrid eddy cam.

I just want to learn more about moving in the canopy. I'm comfortable with srt, but do you really need drt with its crotches & friction savers to move through the canopy?

newguy18

Yeah,its kinda nessecary for positioning,friction savers,sorry don't even own one.90 percent of the time i'm in spikes doing removals so no big concern on saving bark.

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old schooler

skankpile

I'm thinking, once in the tree, I can use an adjustable lanyard as you would drt to anchor on a second limb or crotch in the canopy to help balance out.

I'm thinking the only advantage for me in buying a drt rope and switching to drt is if I want to climb a really high tree where I could keep advancing the rope without having it anchored... an I wrong in this assumption?

What do you guys do to get to the edge and top of the canopy?

dannyboysfc

Drt, use the highest crotch you can and you'll be able to move around. SRT is usually just for canopy access then switch over.

TreeBot

Well, now might not be the time to be learning in Houston. Storm damage can be wicked, damaged limbs and trunks can store incredible amounts energy in the form of tension.

But as far as how to get to the outer edges of the canopy, we tie in as high as we can and then limb walk. Sometimes it is a little too much like free climbing. Get too far away horizontally from your tie in and you risk a pendulum injury should you slip and fall. Broken ribs are common, but sometimes the climber isn't as lucky and a little skinny 3" stub finds their aorta Steve Irwin style. Sometimes redirects can be placed to help but there are often no good places to put them.

When limb walking you kinda lean against your lifeline while walking out the limb, either just balancing or usually you kinda put tension against the limb with your legs and back to move around. It is hard to explain, it looks like walking but your using alot more muscles I can tell you that.

Of course when you get where you are going you establish your second tie in before you go to work, usually with a flipline.

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Eric Frei

One of the reasons why you are finding limb walking "uncomfortable" is the SRT technique.

After much discussion, threads, trying to invent gear, trying to modify gear it's still difficult to find a device that locks off solid when released and gently plays rope out when pulling in a size-able package.

With DRT when you have the system loaded with body weight you can still gently adjust with a simple cheap friction hitch or more expensive stuff like LockJack.

When you are limb walking your balance is more acute on the system, too much leaning force suddenly released with a run of rope will have you lose footing, or the opposite, your heaving like hell on your hitch but have to take weight off the climbing line to get the bloody thing to slide.

A compromise for you to consider would be setting a DRT system off the SRT rope, negating crotch rub as you mentioned. This technique could be employed from your ascension devices backed by a prusik (should be anyway).

Furthermore dual handled ascender etc already deployed from a highset SRT system with DRT rope preattached.

Hope you are still with me here, and consider many options, perhaps try some devices out like and gri gri

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skankpile

my eddy plays out fine... seems there is no magic to it and I just need to practice. I'm going to use a sling to keep me from swinging back to the darn trunk. I'm using sterling htp rope.. so there is no stretch and instant lockup with the eddy so its a slow twichy process as the eddy handle is pretty sensitive on paying out slack. I dont like the idea of hanging off ascenders. As much as I hate it I may get a protector, and try my hand at drt... I'm thinking my sterling htp can do double duty as a srt & drt rope. Even without the prussic I think the slack will pay out more gently if using drt as there will be less tension on the rope. I'll order a friction saver and try my hand with both eddy and prussic.

In pictures like the wesspur catalog I see examples of people reattaching the lifeline to the side d-loop on the harness.. seems like an unsafe practice. You mention running a second drt to the side I guess, but when using drt are you getting into the tree, tying off and then attaching to side d-loop if you have a cut out in the canopy you need to one-hand?

Eric Frei

What's an "eddy"

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newguy18

Have you even watched the videos i posted?

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old schooler

Garry Brockley

As Eric stated you can ascend using an SRT system then change over to a DRT once in the tree, this system is attached on the central strap or floating D rings that are attached onto the central strap on the harness; the side D's are for attaching your lanyard to or tools if needs be or when you use the other end of your rope you can attach it to the side D rings if you want; I dont personally but it keeps it out of the way of your main working line. thats what New guy was talking about take a look at the video.
ps what is an eddy

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skankpile

edelrid eddy (grigri on steroids): details on eddy

Yea, I watched the video, but its just drt going up the hard way, then walking up with flipline, and then another guy does the same.

I didn't see any limb walking videos. Like I say, I'm going to try drt as well with my static sterling htp rope (I don't have any arborist rope).. it just does not knot so well for the friction hitches so I will need a few prussics and a cambium saver which I don't have yet as I'm mostly a sport climber... so drt is somewhat new to me.

Garry Brockley

OK we need some Quality limb walking videos my camcorder is shot lost about four hours of tree dismantling footage Ekka has posted some dismantle jobs where the guys have done some limb walking im sure; just take a mosey around and you never know what you will find

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Eric Frei

Watch these, but using spikes as TD's

Typical Day in the Urban Office

Pomie slays 3 gums ... HUGE event, great footage!

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newguy18

You didn't watch the video of the removal?

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old schooler

MTS247

You should try to get along to a tree rescue course, or find a group of rec climbers in your area. then they can give you some pointers in selecting a good tree and advice about tie in points.

Another big factor is the tree it self, some trees are just plain hard to climb.
It takes some time before you will be able to pick a good tree.

OutofMytree

Amen brother. Some people are kinectic learners. That is, they learn best whilst "doing" rather than reading listening or watching. Hunt around for a short course on arbor climbing. The money you spend on that course will potentially save you hundreds of dollars in gear and teach you little tricks of the trade that you might otherwise have taken years to discover yourself.

Fyi removable crotch devices or cambian savers are more than just for the trees protection. They provide a low friction turning point which saves you heaps of rope damage and effort. When learning to walk I found irrational fear was my greatest enemy. Having a your lifeline feed out smoothly is a great confidence booster.

Full time arbor climbers work every day rather as opposed to rec' climbing for a few hours on the weekend. So naturally any technique we recommend here will be one that allows you to walk the following day rather than hobble....

anuvadave

SRT is for climbing & abseiling, not trees. I found it difficult starting tree climbing because i would not pull myself up using the rope - a morbid sin in rockclimbing where the rope is used only if u fall. In climbing trees hanging in the rope is what moves you around the tree efficiently & safely. you need to forget about all the srt & learn basic tree climbing technique, you can apply SRT later.

Ditch the eddy & use a prussik its much easier to make small adjustments and it will be easier to balance ( u need a much thicker prussik than srt so it will slide down the rope).
good luck with it
have fun & be safe.

Tree Machine

You guys who are directing this guy to your version of doubled rope with the hitches and the pulleys and dog leashes and expensive, consumable eye-eye slings and the cambium savers and the rig for setting and unsetting the cambium savers.... telling this guy that SRT isn't for trees and positioning in trees, give it a break. All the climbers in the world, except for treeguys, work off SRT, so why not tree climbers??? Let me sum it up:
SRT isn't for trees if you insist on using a friction hitch


Now, Skank is not using a friction hitch, and he's climbing SRT and he's doing just fine using a device. His system is simple, minimal and easy to use. Much simpler than even the simplest 2:1 DRT system, and more efficient, you just need to be able to control friction 100%, with ease and complete control and stop without creep when you want to stop, and adjust down when you want to adjust down. There's a lot of ways to do that on a single rope.

Why do you point him in the direction of an increasingly complicated system when he's simply asking how to best position himself?The answer is NO, you do NOT need drt and friction savers and all the other parts. You are fine if have a good, easily adjustable flipline. You can do all things SRT that you can do with the 2:1 friction hitch systems, but you can do more, and be more versatile because there are plenty of things you can do SRT that you wouldn't consider doing in 2:1 mode.

Skank, you are a 'new school' climber, mechanically-based. You are in huge minority in the tree care industry. Most climb some modified version of old convention and just because they're using a Valdetione Tresse and a pully they call themselves 'new school'. They'll even claim their rig is self-tending as they body hump their 2:1 system through the friction saver they just took 10 minutes to set.

Skank, the reason you are having no problem getting up the tree, the reason you're comfortable with SRT is because you come from a different climbing world, it's what you learned on, so keep those advantages of being to move up and down the rope, midline, with both ends on the ground (one end being anchored).

Ditch the eddy and get a hitch. I'm sorry. That is hogwash. If anything, find a device that works even better than the eddy.
Very high initial rope set, sink redirect slings along the way going horzontal, judicious use of your flipline. That's about all there is. Go anywhere in the tree until what you're on is too small for you to be comfortable. Tend slack on a more or less continual basis.

Gunslinger

TM you bring up some interesting points about "new age" Arborist techniques. I would add one caution, the limb that you've crotched with one end of the line anchored will have to be twice as strong as a limb used for DRT due to the doubling effect of that type of setup. Just something to thing about when setting up the SRT.

Tree Machine

That's true. Have your tie-in point in a crotch of a vertical stem, the vector of your 'doubled' force points straight down the length of the stem.

If a climber sets his tie-in point out on a lateral limb, then anchors and goes up SRT, he's really unwise to do that. The doubling of the force, playing on the torque at the limb-stem interface increases greatly the further out on the limb you go. I would hope common sense would come into play and he'd choose a better tie-in point.