New prussik technique...

quercus

I'd like to share a certain technique I've been using for about three years now, before I started using a VT. I've never ever seen it somewhere else and other climbers whom I've worked with haven't either...

Some guys who really like prussiks whom I've trained really like it so I'll post a few pro's and con's too...

Explanation in a few words...

The reason why I came up with this is because of the fact that starting climbers use the prussik because of it's fool-proof design and gripping quality's in a 2:1 climbing system.On the down-side it's a rather difficult knot to return after a limb walk on difficult limbs.Therefore I came up with this set-up to counter that a little bit. This technique has big pro's and also a serious contra but overall I liked it in use and IMO it's a good transition to go from a regular prussik to a self trailing hitch like a VT.

Pro's:
-when used, you have three separate choices going from normal use of the knot, to walking out on a limb mode, to maximum efficiency mode.
It's very good for guys who are using a prussik to walk out on difficult limbs where you need one hand for hangin on to the branch and the other for sliding the knot up.
Especially on the return to the trunk, the prussik is not very handy because it takes two hands to slide it up. That problem is gone now with a better efficiency then let's say a snap hook and pulley.
-makes the prussik self-trailing when needed without the use of non-certified gear
-easy to create a system where you have the same quality's of a Lock-jack twin,but safer for the beginning climber and with cheaper multi-use gear and without the expensive replacement parts of the lock jack.
-reliable and offers more speed on the ascent in a 2:1 system

Con's:
-you have to count in the return length of the prussik line when ascending. this could be shortened when the prussik line is shortened a bit.
-when you alter the mode in the tree,then in some cases you have to release everything from your harness.

A few pictures...

-first picture:the eye splice is now between the sheaves of the pulley. if you are tied in at the top and it's not likely that you will have to disconnect the eye splice from your biner this is a good choice. The knot can be used like a normal prussik, except now you have the benefit of a nice and tidy fit on the biner. It also keeps the pulley straight up when ascending.

-second picture: self trailing mode. by pulling the free end of the rope the prussik will advance automatically. By tying the knot closer to the pulley it's possible to make the efficiency better. This action (shortening of prussik line) would also reduce efficiency in the normal mode at the same time.

-third picture: same setup but added a knot releasing pulley at the same time. Combined with the sling the knot and the assembly is further away from you and there's enough climbing line to use both hands for ascending continuously. A pull on the daisy chain will release the knot for descending letting go of everything will result in full stop.This setup provides the same result as if you were using a lock-jack twin, but it's IMO far more reliable and therefore better in use when starting out. I've been using this technique a lot on free ascents in a 2:1 system, and then footlocking on the single line as there is more then enough space to do so. The efficiency is high in this particular type of use.

-the other pictures are close ups.

Attached Thumbnails

         

Eric Frei

Good idea!

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newguy18

Looks like i might have to try it.

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old schooler

Victor Lindsay

Sharp bend radious on the prussik at the pulley. Or am I looking at it wrong?

quercus

It looks worse than it really is, actually. the edges are rounded off and I've never had a damaged prussik rope of some sort when using this.

shaggs

Looks good mate. Will try it too.
Lurv trying a new setup.

Therrin

Dang... You'd make a great aid-climber Quercus. Climbed any rock before?

ronnyb

Do you run into the problem of having it hang up on branches, twigs, etc? I just started using a Lockjack Sport. It took a couple of hours to get the feel, but you can't beat it for limb walking.

newguy18

I'm not so sure about the lockjack.It doesn't look like something that would work for me.

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quercus

I've been climbing and working on artificial rock and outdoor rock, ice, caves, snow, big wall, structures, buildings, towers, cranes , bridges and other things for the past twenty years. I'm was also certified as an aid/rescue climber a few years, but I lost my certification when it had to be renewed and I didn't have time for that.

It doesn't get hung up or anything like that. Not more than a regular prussik or some other hitch or knot.

I've used all types of lock-jacks so far, except for the new spyder-jack. I find them unrelyable, expensive to operate, and fairly dangerous for starting climbers. I also have a natural dislike for anything that involves climbing that is screwed together. If you are familiar with climbing competition, you'll know that almost no-one uses the lock-jack anymore. A few situations where I got to know the disadvantages...

A piece of a branch fell into the free end of my climbing line after cutting it off. The line stretched for a second and I first I got lifted off of the branch, then lost my grip with my feet and then dropped about 10 feet down before it gripped again.

The wooden ball of the device got stuck in a fork of a branch after cutting it off. I went along with the branch at almost the same speed because of the fact that the device has virtually no friction when the release is operated. There was absolutely no time to free the device so it could grip again and all I could do was brake a little with my hands but I landed fairly hard on the ground.Braking to prevent from falling at high speed was difficult, even with two hands. If this would have occured whithout my climbing gloves my hands would be seriously burned. My flipline got severed when falling because I cut it by accident with the handsaw.The climbing line got damaged seriously as well.

After operating it with a dirty climbing line, wich got dirty from sand and mud, it didn't grip anymore. When I let go of everything the rope still went through slowly, and therefore it became unusable for limb walking or when working with two hands.I could not maintain my position in the tree without preventing the climbing line from running through with one hand. This would have meant that I had to one-hand a chainsaw and that's always a very big no-no. Not only the replacement cam was damaged but also the part where the rope sits in the device itself. It got sanded sort of speak.

I'll never use it again when I have to operate a chainsaw or handsaw in a tree or when the climing line can become wet or dirty.

newguy18

Point taken I'll never buy one I'll stick to friction hitches.

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quercus

May I suggest something? Try a Valdotain Tresse hitch combined with a DMM hitch climber pulley. Seriously the best climbing hitch in the history of tree-care.

Eric Frei

Well, always been thinking about buying the lockjack but now ... forget it. Thanks for that post, I can see how that would happen. The wooden knob needs to go, just a piece of rope should do it.

At the end of the day a $10 piece of rope does bloody well! Hard to beat, and you dont feel bad tossing it out.

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shaggs

Hmmmm. Me too til now thanks quercus.

As they say the simple solutions are often the best

D Mc

Quercus, per your post, you made a series of pretty significant mistakes leading up to your condemnation of the Lock Jack. And as far as using the Lock Jack in wet, muddy or sandy conditions, I don't. Don't do that. That's a good day for the VT. All of the tools at our disposal have their place; that doesn't mean we use them all every day. We need to use what works in the appropriate situation.

Competitions are judged by specific criteria culminating in a climb that ends within minutes. The added friction of a rope hitch in no way hampers your endurance in that situation. Spending 6 to 8 hours in a tree(s) day after day you will notice the difference.

I believe most problems associated with the Lock Jack are caused by lack of a refined tree climbing technique, not the tool itself. If you are still at the stage where you are misplacing tie in points, make the occasional cut that doesn't go where you thought it would, or just don't have the time in trees to be able to respond and move the way they do, then you are not ready for the Lock Jack.

Picture a smokin' hot chain saw that cuts exceptionally fast. As long as you don't make any mistakes it will ease your work load and benefit you. But put your climbing line or flip line in its way, or God should forbid a body part, it is no longer a good tool. Don't throw the saw away...learn better techniques and don't make mistakes.

D Mc

newguy18

I'll try it but I'm pretty used to one of these 4.5 wrap blake,distel,klemheist,or tautline.

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quercus

Well some of these things may be the case, but when the device was new it only grabbed really good on two particular climbing lines. I've tried about twenty different types of line, both new and used... But like you said, twenty years of experience in climbing may not be enough to be ready for the lock-Jack. Or maybe I'm not careful, and if so, then I really don't understand why some students drive 250 miles to come climb with us, rather then with another arborist who lives down the road from them sort o' speak.... You do have a point where you say that it's only to be used in perfect conditions, and I fully understand your opinion if you only have good experiences with the device. How often do we have perfect conditions and perfect trees where I live? About once in a hundred days... I've only had two dozen other climbers say that I'm almost ready for one of the highest certifications in tree-care history of europe. But maybe I'll have to skip that for the next ten years and learn how to saw correctly and tie in correctly before I think about that again...The opinions in my post earlier, are not only my own, but also from a lot of other people. But you could be right and maybe I'll give it another try in the next five years....

D Mc

Quercus, easy hot shot. I wasn't trying to minimize your overall climbing experience or teaching credentials or your certifications. I was merely pointing out that in your post the failure of the lock jack was due to errors that you made not the tool itself. Even the best of us make mistakes, the trick is to recognise them and learn from them.

I don't have your vast experience in the climbing world outside of trees. I only do trees. And have for a long time. During that time I have learned to utilize tools and techniques that are appropriate for the job at hand. There is no one best of anything. Just what works best on that day. If in your situation the Lock Jack is never right, then it isn't the tool for you. But that is the situation not a fault in the tool.

D Mc

quercus

Wich type are you using? For how long? On wich line? How long 'till replacement block was needed?

arborjockey

I was always told that a prussik is not a approved descending knot. and really grabs to hard if you a big guy. Making it hard to loosen up. Its great for a S.R.T asscent. Then tie in your friction hitch at the top and start your work. Personally Im a V.T. guy myself. I cant even stand using a prussik on my lanyard. to much friction. i will defenatly try it though I love trying new systems. As far as 1st time climbers nothing beats the old tautline. It keeps the climber honest as long as they take up the slack up. I use mechanical friction savers only when double croching as they save time from having to tie in (i use a petzel giri). I get what your saying about the debree(I/E sand) when using lock jacks or other devices, they tend to wear out or not work at all. While climbing water towers, cell towers, ect.... Iv tried alot of devices and nothing is as safe as a tried and true friction hitch. In the tower industry the only approved descending device is a FISK check it out on line its a heavy, stainless, piece of crap. thanks 4 the pics

newguy18

The prusik is one of the first knots I learned.I've never had a problem with one but then again I only weigh 225 with gear. 200 without.

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arborjockey

lets here for our big climbers out there, theirs not many of you. Ill defenatly try it out. Are you using the prusik on a sigle line or double? Have you tried any other hitchs? I have only switched my climbing style about 10 times. Im new at the computer thing but im going to try and put some pics of styles iv used and improved on.

newguy18

I use one of 5 hitches.A 5 wrap blakes,a tautline,a prusik,a klemheist,or a distel.I've used the prusik,klemheist and distel single and double line.

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arborjockey

Im a big fan of the v.t. . If everything is set up rite it will self slack tend (making it somewhat dangerous ) but so verstile . never jams, quick to tie,and is great for rigging in that you can put a micro pulley on the top as well as the bottom. Makeing it completely adjustable. under alot of pressure most hitchs tend to over tighten. hard to explain with out pics. there coming!

D Mc

Quercus, I have been using the Lock Jack Sport for over a year with Velocity. (Which was the line I was already using.) with Bee-Line and VT. It took me about 2 hours to feel comfortable with the Lock Jack. The only change I made in the system was adding a tether, so during ascensions I can get both hands under the Lock jack to pull. Then while working the tree, clip it close to my saddle again in a position I am more use to.

So far, clutches seem to last 4 to 6 months. A bit early to tell accurately.

With all this said, I am really not trying to champion the Lock Jack (and agree with you that it is not for a beginner climber); I was more concerned that your analysis of the accident you described blamed the Lock Jack. Whereas in picture 3 of the set up you are describing, if that branch had tangled up in the pulley or tether over the prussik the same result could occur.

You have placed yourself in a position of responsibility as an instructor and, therefore, are going to be held to a higher standard. You will need to be thick skinned enough to recognise your own mistakes if and when they occur to come to a correct evaluation of a system.

D Mc

ronnyb

Before getting the lock jack I climbed on the tautline, blakes, schwabish, distel,knut, and vt. I still use the vt during certain times. The lockjack clutch costs about the same as a bee line prussik cord. Always use a friction saver to cut down on dirt, have the groundie not walk on your rope, etc. The older I get, the more I appreciate anything that cuts down on the wear and tear on my body. (I'm almost 40 and have been climbing for 20 years)

Pro Nemus

I find it difficult to see the benefit of trusting my life and safety in a tool that is so unforgiving of any miscalculation, oversight, adverse condition or random problem - regardless of how improbable it may be.

It sounds like all parties agree that the Lockjack should only be used by a climber who is experienced enough to not make mistakes. However, I do not believe that one exists.

IMHO, a friction hitch system which provides benefits similar to the Lockjack, but does not share it's tempermental nature, is far superior in a risk/reward-type comparison - regardless of how much experience one has. I think that it is foolhardy for an experienced climber to think that he is skilled enough to warrant exchanging so much in reliability for such a slight gain in performance.

D Mc

Pro, I don't know quite where to start on a response to your post and like everyone else, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I would like to clarify a few points. There are many things that we do as advanced climbers that would have been totally unacceptable to do when first learning. It has been my experience that athletic climbers learn very quickly the basic techniques and roping skills necessary to manuveur in the tree. But that does not mean they are proficient yet. In most cases it takes an additional three years for muscle memory to kick in and experience to allow your body to react to the varying forces you are exposed to. So my statement where I recommend beginners not use my setup has less to do with the LockJack and more to do with taking the time to develop the necessary skills to be successful and safe.

Then if a climber is successful to that point, almost without exception, they start to look for ways of improving their productivity. This could involve the shift toward high tec equipment which might include lighter, thinner ropes, friction hitches, mechanical ascenders, rope grabs, more refined saddles and the list goes on as technology advances.

Climbers today should consider themselves very fortunate that training and equipment has evolved to such a high degree. The information available is truly impressive. For the first 35 years of my climbing career I used a tail-tied prussik hitch on 1/2" rope; so I understand people's reticence to change from what has worked for them in the past. However, as my body started reminding me of my advancing years I explored and experimented with the new equipment and techniques that were becoming available.

When you have an abundant amount of over-use injuries the reduction in energy and strength requirements becomes more of an issue. And actually I am positive if some of these methods had been available to me earlier I would be in better condition than I am.

It is hard to express how much some of these things reduce your work load, but they can be substantial.

D Mc

Pro Nemus

For not knowing where to start, I think that you did quite well.

Hell, you can laugh at me all you want, but I am just under 30 years of age and I already can feel a difference in my condition vs 6-8 yrs ago. With just a little forethought, I can definitely understand where you're coming from.

On the other hand, a good friend of mine (who I used to work with) is alot like you, 35 years experience and still climbing on his old Buckingham 4-Dee with a self-made buckstrap flipline and a 4 wrap Prussik. And let me tell you, the old man can out climb me on my fastest day.

I'm not offended if you don't agree with me. I just think that the greater the risk, the greater the return has to be. It seems to me that an advanced hitch (VT or I use Knut) gives only slightly less, if not similar performance, and seems to be much more reliable [s]and "foolproof"[/s].

quercus

A vt is certainly not foolproof mate....It won't "drop" you like a lockjack, but you gotta learn to keep an eye on it.