New prussik technique...

ronnyb

Before getting the lock jack I climbed on the tautline, blakes, schwabish, distel,knut, and vt. I still use the vt during certain times. The lockjack clutch costs about the same as a bee line prussik cord. Always use a friction saver to cut down on dirt, have the groundie not walk on your rope, etc. The older I get, the more I appreciate anything that cuts down on the wear and tear on my body. (I'm almost 40 and have been climbing for 20 years)

Pro Nemus

I find it difficult to see the benefit of trusting my life and safety in a tool that is so unforgiving of any miscalculation, oversight, adverse condition or random problem - regardless of how improbable it may be.

It sounds like all parties agree that the Lockjack should only be used by a climber who is experienced enough to not make mistakes. However, I do not believe that one exists.

IMHO, a friction hitch system which provides benefits similar to the Lockjack, but does not share it's tempermental nature, is far superior in a risk/reward-type comparison - regardless of how much experience one has. I think that it is foolhardy for an experienced climber to think that he is skilled enough to warrant exchanging so much in reliability for such a slight gain in performance.

D Mc

Pro, I don't know quite where to start on a response to your post and like everyone else, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I would like to clarify a few points. There are many things that we do as advanced climbers that would have been totally unacceptable to do when first learning. It has been my experience that athletic climbers learn very quickly the basic techniques and roping skills necessary to manuveur in the tree. But that does not mean they are proficient yet. In most cases it takes an additional three years for muscle memory to kick in and experience to allow your body to react to the varying forces you are exposed to. So my statement where I recommend beginners not use my setup has less to do with the LockJack and more to do with taking the time to develop the necessary skills to be successful and safe.

Then if a climber is successful to that point, almost without exception, they start to look for ways of improving their productivity. This could involve the shift toward high tec equipment which might include lighter, thinner ropes, friction hitches, mechanical ascenders, rope grabs, more refined saddles and the list goes on as technology advances.

Climbers today should consider themselves very fortunate that training and equipment has evolved to such a high degree. The information available is truly impressive. For the first 35 years of my climbing career I used a tail-tied prussik hitch on 1/2" rope; so I understand people's reticence to change from what has worked for them in the past. However, as my body started reminding me of my advancing years I explored and experimented with the new equipment and techniques that were becoming available.

When you have an abundant amount of over-use injuries the reduction in energy and strength requirements becomes more of an issue. And actually I am positive if some of these methods had been available to me earlier I would be in better condition than I am.

It is hard to express how much some of these things reduce your work load, but they can be substantial.

D Mc

Pro Nemus

For not knowing where to start, I think that you did quite well.

Hell, you can laugh at me all you want, but I am just under 30 years of age and I already can feel a difference in my condition vs 6-8 yrs ago. With just a little forethought, I can definitely understand where you're coming from.

On the other hand, a good friend of mine (who I used to work with) is alot like you, 35 years experience and still climbing on his old Buckingham 4-Dee with a self-made buckstrap flipline and a 4 wrap Prussik. And let me tell you, the old man can out climb me on my fastest day.

I'm not offended if you don't agree with me. I just think that the greater the risk, the greater the return has to be. It seems to me that an advanced hitch (VT or I use Knut) gives only slightly less, if not similar performance, and seems to be much more reliable [s]and "foolproof"[/s].

quercus

A vt is certainly not foolproof mate....It won't "drop" you like a lockjack, but you gotta learn to keep an eye on it.

Pro Nemus

You know I didn't particularly like that word, hence the ""s around it. Didn't mean to give anyone a false sense of security here.

quercus

I'm not pounding on you mate, think of it as a small correction.

George Hayduke

What am I missing?

I can't see any purpose in using the becket pulley to terminate the rope sling onto the low biner.

You don't trust your life to anything that screws? Then give me the car keys and start walking. You can't get away from things that are screwed and bolted together.

Old machine shop question...what is the difference between a screw and a bolt. This isn't a smutty question either.

Unless I'm really missing something it looks like you have a long bridge friction hitch with a slack tender above. That isn't radically new really.

How smooth is that long bridge to slack tend when you're going up the rope? Add a Mini-Jack though and it will.

The LJ does have it's place in the arbo world but maybe not in your kit.

Prusiks scare me...they don't pass slip-grab rope tests as well as other hitches.

Therrin

I'm not sure that that is a good correlation. You can at least just sit in your car, in your driveway, and not have your life literally hanging in the balance.

As for a screw and a bolt, it's the material you're securing with it, and how much surface area you can get into contact with the parent material. Hadn't heard that from any of my machine shop buddies before <scratches head>
There's a huge difference.

Could you name a few? I mean, without going and doing research first? Perhaps you could have mentioned specifics you had in mind, and why you like them, plus why you use them?

George Hayduke

I sure wish that I could site chapter and verse on all of the slip grab friction hitch testing but I can't. Most of the downloads poofed when my pc choked. Now that I use a Mac I'm so much more confident that these bits of research will be archived.

I've been on the Internet for close to 20 years. Spending time researching rope use outside of the tree industry has given me many insights that tree climbers need to know. I posted the google results for backing up a rappel so that people can learn all that they need. When I was in high school a lterature teacher would fail us if we ever walked into his class with a copy of Cliff Notes. it didn't make a difference if it was for something that we were studying in his class. Not doing extennsive reading on your own and just basing what you do with your life support on someone's opinions on a discussion forum can lead to failure, meaning your death.

If you want to see one of the slip/grab drop tests get hold of Ken James in Australia. His students did some tests and showed that the prusik was much more likely to slip to failure rather than slip/grab to declerate a fall. Cavers, search and rescue, mountaineering have all done similar tests using their typical rope and gear configurations. In ALL of those tests there is a trend to see that a prusik is NOT a choice that anyone under my supervision will use. There are many more hitches that work better. The klemheist has been my favorite for decades...not years. I have 40 years of production climbing under my boots. And I still climb, FWIW.

I thought that I re-read the thread again. Did I miss the explanation of the becket pulley?

The addition of the slack tender above your extended bridge has some real dangers. Anything could snag the tether and down you go. That PMP up top is a big target for a branch snag too.

The system has some merit but I'm not at all comfortable with your gear combination.

Therrin

Funny that is... maybe you were collaborating with Al Gore back then? 15year's ago I was still using BBS's and modem stacks. You must have been one cutting edge guy!

Cool! What kind of research outside of the tree industry did you do? Personal research? Professional research? Are you a rock climber? Caver? Rescue? Ice? What's the story?

They could have learned it alot faster if you had bothered to post specific relevant links...
See this thread for an example: (ps, it only takes a couple mins of your time)
Types of Biners you use.

This, I'm afraid, is just absurd. What's wrong with having reference materials? Consider that some people actually DO the studying any research, and still have reference materials on hand?

People don't learn ALL of it on a forum, forums are for discussion though. Gives you a chance to DEFEND what you like, ADVOCATE for the things you like, and TALK about things. Noone's suggesting that you explain step-by-step how to use the equipment, in order to replace someone's actual research altogether. That'd just be silly!
You said it yourself, its a DISCUSSION forum! So...lets DISCUSS the gear!


Funny you mentioned cavers.... caving is the one field where excessive FRACTURES/pitting/corrosion etc are regular factors leading to biner failure. You can find the link to the page which gives the scientific explanation for this on the thread I posted the link to further up this page.
Since you deny all aspects of biners being able to fracture and fail, and mentioned caving here, I thought it'd be pertinent to mention it.

so what WOULD you be comfortable with? I mean, not just what can be googled, what would you specifically use?

D Mc

Therrin, you mentioned advocating for the things you like.



My POOR prussik. I feel so bad for my trusted companion of many, many years. Hundreds of thousands of feet of ascents and descents. Never let me down, was always there; wouldn't roll out, tension could be adjusted with a thumb and forefinger. I never understood the lack of acceptance.

D Mc

arborjockey

Some times you just have to take that ol' dog up in the mt. though. Or maybe trade him in on the new and improved.

Quercus, to me putiing micropulleys and gadgets on a prussik is like lipstick and pantyhose on an old lady. It's fine but don't expect her to win a race.

D Mc

Actually I did buy a new dog. This is it. You will see in the last picture that a very difficult tie in point can be reached very easily and quickly with the adjustable false crotch.

D Mc

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George Hayduke

T,

TreeFrog is my favorite ascent rig. two attachments a ways aapart seems safer to me.

D,

Why do you have the runner on the LJ? That seems like it would put the LJ way out of reach in an emergency. hard to reach I think. Are the two biners chained together for illustration or is that a routine setup?

D Mc

G,

I had that tether custom made to the length I needed. It allows me to get both hands under the LJ during ascents which is just as smooth as silk, with zero set back like you experience with an attended hitch. It is not out of reach by any means; however, before working I clip the biners together, thereby shortening the distance from the LJ and myself. It is a spacing I am very comfortable with.

Most of the time I leave the biners in series. The way the LJ moves on the line keeps them always loaded. If I feel I am getting into a situation that might disrupt that loading I can clip directly into my bridge pulley with a single biner.

D Mc