Entry-Level Gear Good Enough?

4me2do

I didn't see a "products" forum here, so I guess this is as good as any to ask in.

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts about entry level gear as far as it's quality. This seems like a good deal to me, but I am really not well educated in climbing gear at all and could use input from you more knowledgeable climbers. :

Basic Spur Climbing Kit

I would only need the gear for removing several trees on my property.


Thanks

Therrin

Oh there's actually dozens of threads on here about the topics you're looking for. I'd normally be happy to find them for you but you mentioned on your other post that you have nothing but time...

There is a "search" function, near the top of the page, at the right hand side. You can type in different things and actually look for pages having to do with that. Usually only words of 4 letters or more work very well. But it's an amazing feature on this site that I think is far underused.

When you say "entry level" you mean like....what? The equipment that's designed specifically so it'll be uncomfortable or that doesn't really get the job done? Or just the cheap stuff that's made just for home owners to knock over some fences and powerlines with?

It's really amazing that you went parasailing so recently. I've heard that's pretty expensive.

Try searching for words like "climbing harness", "helmet", "spurs/gaffs", "newguy18", or "should I use a cordless chainsaw or an electric powered one?" (or just type "what chainsaw to buy".

treeshaveneeds

I expect this equipment will last at least one job, but as Therrin says -- parasailing is pricey, and this equipment is nearly $500. Just how much are the trees on your property going to cost you to remove if a tree crew takes them down?

I think you would be better off -- financially -- to hire a tree crew, to get the trees on the ground, and use your free time for more para-sailing.

Therrin

Helmet - $100
Harness - $150 - $500
Boots - $150
Gaffs - $125 - 300
Rope/flips/lanyards - $300
Basic hardware gear - $150
A saw that doesnt suck - $520

Someone to scoop your ass up and drive you to the hospital after that little-50-ft-mostly-coniferous-tree falls on you - PRICELESS

Some things in life can't be bought, but for everything else there's Visa Mastercard.

4me2do

Since we have wandered way off of talking about gear, let me straighten you out. I said in a separate thread "I have more time than money", not "I have nothing but time." And yes, para-sailing is generally expensive... but are you actually implying that I should have sacrificed my honeymoon (which was already belated an entire year due to the cost of the wedding) to pay for tree removal? Oh yeah, I spent a whopping $80 for both my wife and I to see the Florida Keys from 1000 feet above on the first vacation we've taken in years... and I've been overdue for a vacation for so long, just ask my butler and chauffeur. Are you not getting enough work and deciding to take it out on a random non-arborist like myself, who just was hoping for some simple advise from people with expertise in a field which I know very little about comparatively? If so, blame the economy and not me, I am affected by it too. Or are you are just mocking me in a friendly way? Perplexing. Also, I did leave a very specific example (hyperlinked, in fact) of the gear in question. Thanks for mentioning the search engine in such a delightful manner though.

I am thinking that, based on the quote my neighbor got for the tree on his property last year, at least $200-250 each. I have five or six that must go, so the math is there. From what I've read about most ground crews, I would probably be better off having my attentive friends helping instead. I'll have to check on a quote first.

So I dunno, I think I will mull it over while I am para-sailing over the crops of Ohio, since I "have nothing but time". Surprise! Non-arborists can be facetious turds too.

Eric Frei

Yes, it's a good kit for start out.

But it is missing a life line, and you should never be cutting with only one attachment point or making interchanges by hanging on, you must stay attached at all times.

Click on the blue tab called "Add-ons & Related Items" and get the $189 add on.

It says (I bolded the real important part:-

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Therrin

Mmm...

keep in mind that along with all that other metal stuff in that kit you'll want to pay special attention to keeping that wire-core flipline away from power lines.


Why are these 6 trees coming out anyway? Is something wrong with them or are they just in a bad spot?

Treebeard

LMAO after reading this thread.

4me2do: Do you have a death wish?

Buying a kit and spiking up trees with little to no training will get you in serious trouble real fast. There are a ton of things that could go wrong.

Do your wife a favor and don't make her a widow.

dov

This is important. Either a second flipline, or a longer flipline that you can double-tail with a prussik or two-way adjuster like the Klimair. Personally I use a 15' Maxi-flip Sports with a prussik in the middle so I can double tail and stay attached going past branches. If you do go the prussik option, buy the best prussik cord you can. The cheap stuff is rubbish and tends to slip.

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dov

You will probably find that a lot of the fee in your neighbours tree is the cost of getting on site and basic equipment surcharge etc. In your case this would be spread between the trees. Also on the cost of equipment. I got my basic spur climbing gear from the same site that you are looking at and paid about US$800 (not including postage) for a basic set of gear that was good to work with. Add in the cost of perhaps two chainsaws (you don't want to be climbing with the big saw you might use for the base of the trees) as well as maybe a climbing line (US$80 for really cheap line), ropes to lower branches with, ascenders and descenders, pulleys, books etc most of which will not be used again and a lot of which could be difficult to sell second hand for anything near what you paid for it. Last but by no means least, add up your time and put a dollar figure to it.

All in all, it's a great fun sounding project, but extremely ambitious and exceptionally dangerous. All in all, it may just be cheaper to get the professionals in and if you are interested in what we do, ask if you can work as ground crew to lower the fee and try to learn something. You probably won't save much, if any, money trying to do the job yourself unless you do it mickey mouse - and then you have the possible medical expenses.

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4me2do

@Ekka and Dove: I have been looking at pictures to see what is used (before actually reading up on it like I plan to) and I wondered about that. Sounds like a must-have piece of gear to me. This does help me to better assess how much I would have to spend overall. Thank you!

A helmet and gloves would be on the list too.


@Therrin: I will not be anywhere near power lines. I wouldn't even think about trying it if so. As long as the metal stuff is strong enough to do what it is supposed to.

When we looked at the place last July, I was stunned by how much foliage could fit on a single in-town property. Overall, the trees take up a lot of space and steal a lot of sunlight... there might be Ewoks living up there for all I know (not that I'd want to destroy their homes or anything). I do eventually want to have a garden and fence the yard in. A couple pines are close enough to my neighbors fence to where some branches broke off during the winter (due to the weight of huge snowfalls) and landed on it. A couple other tree are right next to each other and only several feet from my garage and the other neighbors house. I may keep some of the smaller trees as there are well over a dozen trees on our small lot. And someone did mention somewhere that a smaller yard makes the job more complex, as I would imagine is true.


@Treebeard- I ask about gear mainly to assess that cost versus the cost of hiring out. You missed my other thread. If I had a deathwish, I wouldn't bother asking for advice. I am a very cautious guy and thoroughly research things before acting...huge on planning stuff, trust me on that. I know I can complete my task without mortally wounding myself and I would study up on it as much as necessary. But again, I am going to get a quote first.



I am wondering if the work you arborists regularly do is riskier than what it would be for my lot. Not that it wouldn't be dangerous- danger is no doubt always there no matter what size the job- but seriously, you guys might be imaging me doing the crazy stuff that you do. I wouldn't want to try some of the trees I've seen guys cutting down without becoming fully certified first. I really do need to take some pics of the trees so you all can see what I mean. And then if you think I will kill myself, I will be more apt to believe you.

Therrin

Possibly you could put up some pictures of your property and the trees you're talking about?

Trying to qualitatively assess "how crazy" what we do is and "how dangerous" your property's needs are ... is too complex an issue, and I'm not sure that it's something that really needs to be defined.

The scope of what we do combines a few skillsets though, and as mentioned earlier you can make grave errors by NOT doing something just as easily as by doing the wrong thing.

Suffice it to say, its a dangerous job. "how" dangerous or in comparison to your property, doesn't matter so much as just knowing that its not like you're learning how to play guitar or something.
Think of how you'd feel if you hurt someone else, even if not yourself, from assuming that you could anchor to something that looked safe to you but really showed underlying signs of defects that you hadn't seen or noticed?

4me2do

Yes, as I just said, I am going to get some pics soon hopefully.

I see your point, a mistake is a mistake. But I would be spur climbing up, cutting down limbs from the ground up. I haven't even begun to seriously study the process yet, so can't help it if I seem ignorant at this point, but what do you use as an anchor when there are no limbs? I need to know right away because I am just going to haul ass up there in a couple hours and start chopping away at whatever. And I don't even need safety gear, or a saw- I am just going to gnaw away at the limbs like a beaver.

Treebeard

Good one 4me2do,

Beavers are smart they cut trees down while not leaving the ground.
If climbing were so great they would have adapted and learned to climb.
Were you kidding when you said "I know I can complete my task without mortally wounding myself". That's almost as good as "hey ya'll watch this"

4me2do

LOL I am not a hillbilly and those will not be my last words, but yes -I was serious... however, there are conditions to that statement involving time for planning and learning and it might take some months to accomplish the goal safely and soundly. You all have convinced me that if I tried this next week, I probably would get hurt very badly.

I had another thought... I live near the OARDC, which is the Ohio Agricultural Research and Development Center. They have a beautiful arboretum there with an impressive variety of trees. Anyway, I wonder if they offer any types of climbing/cutting courses there, surely they must have arborists on staff.

On the other hand, I saw a client tonight who will try to find me the number for an arborist her homeowners association used a year or two ago... apparently he took down 12 trees for $400 (although left the stumps). Hiring a pro may end up costing a lot less than I had imagined after all.

Therrin

Beavers may be smart, but accidents can happen anywhere.







On that note, kids, its been fun. I'm outtro for a week. Going to hit up my prospecting spot with my new sluice box. I'll take pictures. Have fun everybody.

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Eric Frei

The clean up is the killer, another option is they cut and leave ... you clean up.

I love those jobs, leave a big mess and go.

and the people, "gee, it looks so much more now on the ground"

But I am always amazed at what people shift over a weekend with their utes and trailers.

I recently stump ground a decent sized paperbark tree for this old bloke, I knew the tree and bugger me the old bloke cut it down himself with a handsaw. I couldn't believe it, checked with neighbours I knew and they saw him do it. He even cut everything up into like 3' long to pack it in a skip. The whole tree.

I knew that tree and fair dinkum it was a $1000 tree to do. He said he did it in a week, gave him something to do. Now the skip cost $260, the stump grind $100 and he did biff up one section of colourbond fence (maybe $100 to fix) ... so he saved roughly $500.

He was a painter and had long ladders, risky alright but he did it and is telling the story.

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treeshaveneeds

I have seen homeowners do amazing jobs with a handsaw too - and things go pretty much all right, and I have seen some do jobs with a chainsaw (or a handsaw) and things went terrifying wrong. I am glad your client succeeded, and lived to tell about it. Being a painter, and having done a lot of ladder work, he might have had more common sense than most of us would have given him credit for.

The big problem with that scenario is people tell other people how they suffered and what a mess the tree company left them, and leave out the part the job cost less because the client wanted to save money and cleanup themselves. I have found it is far better to cleanup the job, do a super job, and have friends and neighbours see for themselves what a caring job you do -- for a price -- and be happy to recommend you.

southsoundtree

In this research stage, I'll suggest researching what the drop and leave option will be. I usually have all my gear in one pick-up truck, and if I'll be chipping, then attach the chipper to the pick-up, or if hauling bring the chip truck and chipper. You might have someone come to bid the job with their full supply of gear, and it might take an experienced climber only an hour or four to drop and leave. If they happen to have the day free after your appointment, they may even be willing to do it a little cheaper if they don't have to add in the overhead of a return trip. If it requires roping things down that they can't do on their own from the tree, and need their groundman, it wouldn't work so much.

Without pictures, and measurements of the trees, its hard to say what it will take. I recently had a customer take down a huge dead madrona on a retaining wall, all 25' of it. If I was just dropping and leaving it, I would have done it all in 1/2 an hour, with the roping down of trunks over the wall and bushes, without damage or any climbing. What seems like a mountain is sometimes a mountain, sometimes a mole hill.

At least a description of the trees' size, condition, species, measurements, etc would give you some more available informed opinions about if it sounds like a big deal or not, and whether its even worth doing all the research and buying, and reselling, and risk taking.

There are many dangers that are easily avoidable, such as don't drop things onto people below you. The other things that are not so easily avoided can include unseen decay, cavities, stem splitting/ barberchairing, root failure, stabbing yourself with the gaffs in the calf/ankle, a short fall with an almost instant stop because of gaffing out with a little slack in the system.


Back to the gear. Commercially available gear is all going to do the job, but a cheap harness will not be as comfortable as an expensive harness, typically. To be used for a day or two, its probably fine. Just a word of caution, again, that gear is something you can buy, experience and judgment are not. Also, What is your experience working at heights and cutting? You don't need to use a chainsaw while climbing, though there are time that it is unsafe to do certain cutting without one (plunge cuts to reduce barberchairs). Consider if you buy the gear, what will the cost be if you get only a bit of the work done, and can't finish it.

dannyboysfc

Why are we allowing this person to entertain the idea of doing this work on his own? Even small, easy trees for an experienced arborist are out of the question for someone with no experience, training, or supervision. If it cant be taken down safely and easily from the ground you should hire someone, at least a climber for hire who has insurance.

treeshaveneeds

Quoted by dannyboysfc That is an easy question. We're not doing the allowing. We're only offering advice. And if all the professionals say hire somebody, and 4me2do is convinced he can do the job just as well - it is his choice. Unless one of us is so upset we're planning on getting his address and getting the trees on the ground for him, we can only advise, and hope he makes intelligent choices, and follows thru.

I for one, am happy to see so many members advising against a lay person doing the job himself.

southsoundtree

+1.

Its sorta like putting the family in the car on a steep hill after removing and re-install the brakes on the car by reading directions. Nobody says it can't be done, or that its good judgment. Better to have a knowledgeable mechanic do the replacing, and the owner do the disposal of the old parts.

TrevMcRev

As an experienced arborist AND retailer of climbing gear I face this moral dillema often.

I try to advise most complete novices to at least buy the Tree Climbers Companion first, read it thoroughly, understand as much as they can, then buy gear once they have a better idea of how it's used.

The book is not a replacement for proper training, but is a very helpful guide.

treeshaveneeds

As an experienced arborist AND retailer of climbing gear I face this moral dThe book is not a replacement for proper training, but is a very helpful guide.

Maybe TrevMcRev you should "branch out" and offer beginner lessons. Might help with the moral dilemma and your conscience.

second-gen_monkey

i don't know if you've done or had the job done yet but i'll tell you now, if you're going to invest the money in a decent climbing set and a half good chainsaw you better love adrenaline. though, with the whole human kite thing i'd guess you do. but you also need to have a good understanding of the danger involved.
there is a good reason for the cost of removal and clean up. the level of danger involved in removing increases expedentially when it's near buildings and i'm guessing here that they are fairly tall pines or similar. when you're pretty much cutting a scaffold off of a telephone pole and taking the whole thing down there is a lot more going on than it looks like. wind, temperature, tree density, bark density, and the tendancy of a tree to swing in the wind and when it has weight (tention) released are very important. a frozen pine will splinter like crystal where as a hot pine may peel or even glue the saw into a cut. the species, condition and overall health of the tree must be correctly assesed. i had a neighbor as a child who decided to trim his own trees one year to ofset the cost of hiring a pro. he did good untill the australian pine he was in litterally fell over. needless to say, he hires out now.

additionally what looks like a small pine can easily cover more ground than alot of people realize, the clean up job can be incredibly hard even with trees that don't seem like they'd create a large mess (coconuts or queen palms are an awesome example of how a "little tree" can prove more work than anticipated.). i have seen a one acre yard produce almost 200 yards of debris. height and girth can be hard to estimate without experience, especially if the tree has a lean or is on a slope. your friends may well prove more than competent in removing the debris but they are not going to be happy by the end of the day. most home owners complain about a branch accidentally left behind a peice of landscaping, drag marks in the grass or divots caused by dropped branches but they dont realize that the men in the yard are regularly lifting 100 to 200 pund logs and manuvering branches longer than themselves through tight spaces while avoiding breaking ornaments, fences or painted surfaces. and this is after they've all ben cut down to a manageable size.

anyway i've ranted long enough. all i can say is, if you really want to do this you need to be ready for some serious heavy work. if your friends help they need to realize this is WORK. i've had friends call and say "hey, why don't we take the weekend and have a coupple beers, play some pool, and watch the soccer game? oh, and lets take these darn dates out too." only to get mad when i tell them it's not chill time untill the trees are out. this isn't setting up a child's playset or taking a wall (non-structually important) out of a house. it's not a party. keep it in your head that you or someone you care for/ like hanging out with can be killed by a bad breeze, a diseased branch or a bad knot. there's alot that can go wrong.