conventional figure-8

young bull · 5th January 2008, 07:36 PM

g'day, after a right lecture from my uncle will i was wondering if a conventional figure 8 with a safety knot is suitable for my highline application. he normally uses a bowline (reef knot). my dad is a level 5 arborist/ horticulturist and recomends a figure 8. also, while scalfing out the head in a hoop pine my dad pulled it over with the winch on our 18 bandit before i did the back cut....is this safe???? being a novice climber i was freaking out, can anybody shed some light??? thanks.

Tree Machine · 5th January 2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

while scalfing out the head in a hoop pine my dad pulled it over with the winch on our 18 bandit before i did the back cut....is this safe????

It's his way of telling you you're too friggin slow.

He could kill you like that, but he's not trying to kill you. He's just trying to let you know in that special treeguy way that you need to get with it.

If you're his only nephew, that can work to your advantage. If he has other nephews, that makes you more disposable. Either way, you better just pick up the pace.

Sean Freeman · 5th January 2008, 10:20 PM

Quote:

while scalfing out the head in a hoop pine my dad pulled it over with the winch on our 18 bandit before i did the back cut....is this safe????

Definately not!!! He should not have done that, down right dangerous even in a small tree, the results from breaking the stem like that are totally unpredictable, as is the effect it will have on a young climber.....a mistake at the very least.

The reason why the bowlilne is generally not used as a termination knot to the attachment to your harness is because of some accidents relating to both poor tying technique and the weakness within the knot itself.

Generally figure of 8 or figure of 9 and scaffold knots are used for terminations to your harness (or the biners attached to your harness). That having been said spliced eyes are really the best terminations IMHO.

quercus · 5th January 2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young bull

my dad is a level 5 arborist/ horticulturist and recomends a figure 8. also, while scalfing out the head in a hoop pine my dad pulled it over with the winch on our 18 bandit before i did the back cut....is this safe???? being a novice climber i was freaking out, can anybody shed some light??? thanks.

HELL NO this isn't safe!!! And you shouldn't allow it anymore either. If you're dad is a certified arborist he should have known that and where I come from, the climber is always boss on the job site. YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER PULL ON ANY SECTION OF TREE WITH AN ELECTRIC OR HYDRAULIC WINCH WITH A CLIMBER IN THE TREE. MANUAL WINCHING OR MANUAL PULLING WITH A PULLEY SYSTEM IS THE WAY TO GO AS IT IS BY FAR MORE ACCURATE. YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER SPEED THINGS UP LIKE THAT BECAUSE A GROUNDIE SAYS SO, EVEN IF THAT'S YOUR BOSS OR THE CLIENT OR THE HOLY FATHER HIMSELF THAT RAPELLED DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO DESTROY HIS OWN CREATIONS. MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND IT'S GONNA BE YOUR WAY OR NO WAY.IF THEY DON'T... THEN SEEK JOBS ELSEWHERE...

JayD · 5th January 2008, 11:16 PM

Young bull,
There is NO WAY IN THE WORLD, I would even consider doing that with John in the tree, Sadly, Dad,..maybe thru frustration..even then it's no excuse not have your climber's saftey, FIRST, Talk to Dad about this and if he's not willing to realise he could have caused your death on that day..Well I would not climb for Dad again, My son is our climber and i'm watching his back all the time..your safety in the tree is your groundies first concern, He is your eyes in the back of your head,The climber and the man on the ropes literally have each others lives in each others hands. Generally the figure of 8 knot and a fishermans knot are used to attach the climbing rope to your karabiner then to the harness as it is known for reliability, with the bowline make sure you have a long tail on it for sliping to lock the as sometimes they do.
Good Luck
JayD

quercus · 6th January 2008, 01:39 AM

The major problem with fisherman's knots and figure 8 knots is if they become loaded it can be difficult to untie. You could try a double loop figure 8 to counter that a little bit...This double loop knot also doubles up on safety. I'll post pics if you don't know the knot and how to tie it. Very simple

You can load a bowline with a 100.000 pound load sort of speak, and still it's easy to untie. When practicing this knot you should be able to tie that knot correctly, behind your back while talking to your girlfriend about whatever issue you may have and watch the telli at the same time, because it is one of the most VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT knots in tree-care... I'm serious about this.... also learn to put the safety on automatically, this means that you must always tie a single figure of 8 or a stopper knot in the free end of the line, wich must be at least 1.50 feet of length (with the figure of 8 already tied in)... Like Jayd said that's your life insurance and the knot is simply not complete without it. Bowlines tend to run through a bit, especially when the load comes on and off regularly.

A WORD OF ADVICE...

the knowledge of knots and hitches is not to be taken lightly!! You must master them and be able to tie them without thinking or seeing... Why? Because when you're starting out as a climber ,climbing may seem difficult and you'll be very tired after a short period of time. Not only phisically tired but mentally as well. That's exactly the time when catastrophic failure occurs during tying of knots. Go low and slow when you're trying something new, and always gently test-load your knot before releasing your other tie-in. I kept a six feet long rope of 4 mm in my pocket for about two years. It gives you the opportunity to practice your knots everywhere when you're bored or get stuck in traffic or something like that. Steering wheels and gear shifters are nice when practicing rigging knots actually. Just don't tie 'em together as I did in a traffic jam once.... AND ALWAYS REMEMBER :Trees and gravity have their own special way of dealing with over-confident climbers...

Therrin · 6th January 2008, 03:12 AM

Heh, I was actually sitting in the parking lot at the drugstore the other day with a NFPA biner clipped to my steering wheel and doing some knots...

For your harness tie in I'd recommend a "figure 8 follow through" with a stopper knot, or a double-loop figure 8 like Quercus mentioned. We used the figure 8 follow through to tie in thousands of people over a decade where I worked and never had any problem; just leave plenty of tail, don't tie them short.

Tree Machine · 6th January 2008, 07:38 AM

You guy DO know I was joking, right?

quercus · 6th January 2008, 09:12 AM

I kinda sensed that...

arborjockey · 6th January 2008, 11:12 AM

True arborist work at the top speed of safe. The first person who taught me rigging techniques told me strait faced "If anyone on the ground EVER tells you to speed up. Climb down and go home". Never pull on tree with a winch while your in a tree. A good climber was killed when the cable broke, hit him in the hard and split his head. Tell your uncle to learn mechanical advantages by using ropes and blocks/pulleys(fiddleblock). You can get a more even, controlled pull.

shaggs · 6th January 2008, 04:13 PM

Young Bull,
I think you got your answers here mate, with alot of good info. The guys are straight up because this is a very serious topic.
You have to tell him straight up too. Even get him on TW to ask his own questions. Let us know how you go.

When i first learnt my knots and thought I knew them. Thats when my old man made me tie them blindfolded or behind my back or above my head....correct tail, dressing n all. Even emergency procedures like tieing a bowline around yourself one handed etc. Now I never think of it but are very glad for it.

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 02:27 AM

Now the golden question ... was the section back cut or not?

Therrin · 8th January 2008, 02:27 AM

Welcome to TreeWorld Urbantreemanagement!!!

I may have misunderstood, but is YoungBull your son?

I'm a rather headstrong young man in my young twenties as well, the only advice I can give is: make sure he uses two tie in points. Eventually he'll learn that he's fallible through his own mistakes, but it may take some time. In the meantime, as long as he's using propper equipment and techniques it should get him through his initial learning phase.

Us youngin's can be difficult to teach since, well, we know everything of course!!! I told my dad the other day; the older I get, the smarter I realize he is

Just stick with him and hopefully his learning curve will increase proportionally along with his safety.

JayD · 8th January 2008, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbantreemanagement

To all the professional arborists out there, that have their own sons working for them and training, to PLEASE take a few moments to understand my side of this story.

My 20 yo son, who is only capable of doing small palm trees at this stage, hedging, chipping and groundwork, does not understand the full extent of the tree industry. I am very patiently trying to teach my headstrong son how to safely climb and this has not been an easy task. He believes he already knows everything to do with trees and is a new-age arborist with more knowledge than any other arborist he has met. He is critical of all the videos he has watched on this forum and lacks respect for any advice he receives from experienced arborists/tree climbers.

I apologise for the misunderstanding regarding Young Bulls original post, be assured I would never endanger the health or life of my son or any of my climbers.

Welcome to Treeworld,
It's allways good to hear both sides of the story,Matureing a young climber, such as your own Son is diffucult,Both parties have to develop a respect for each other, somewhat differant to a father-son relationship. My son, John, Is our climber and at times I feel like i'm holding back a young stallion at the reins,John gets a little frustrated and me to but we both realise we are just trying to keep each other safe,We go home and discuss anything that anoys us during the day..If needed have mum ajudicate for the peace.Good luck and all the best.....out of curiosity...was there a back cut..and did you pullit over with the winch as young bull say's??. Speed follow's technique

JayD

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 03:18 AM

Young Bull might need a kick in the ass then.

I dont see anything wrong using mechanical devices and advantages in tree work.

There's people around who think you shouldn't even fell trees with trucks etc ... boohoo for them, inexperienced, panic ridden or simply got no idea about doing it. We actually did it as part of our course.

Oh, I suppose those people shouldn't use GRCS's or cranes either.

JayD · 8th January 2008, 03:30 AM

By the sounds of things, you may have given him a bit of a ride when it broke away?? We use my 4by at times and the winch aswell to pull over a tree where site conditions are right, As it was explained to me by a very smart arb,JM if your reading, With mechanicl advantages,such as the GRCS,with the winching power of these devices they have steped up considerably in hardware but the problem lies after that with human error..their technique does not step up fast enough...and they overload limbs that cannot handle the stress of winching causing break outs..etc..etc.

5th January 2008, 07:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
young bull I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: queensland Posts: 3	conventional figure-8 g'day, after a right lecture from my uncle will i was wondering if a conventional figure 8 with a safety knot is suitable for my highline application. he normally uses a bowline (reef knot). my dad is a level 5 arborist/ horticulturist and recomends a figure 8. also, while scalfing out the head in a hoop pine my dad pulled it over with the winch on our 18 bandit before i did the back cut....is this safe???? being a novice climber i was freaking out, can anybody shed some light??? thanks.

5th January 2008, 11:16 PM	#5 (permalink)
JayD Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 931	Re: conventional figure-8 Young bull, There is NO WAY IN THE WORLD, I would even consider doing that with John in the tree, Sadly, Dad,..maybe thru frustration..even then it's no excuse not have your climber's saftey, FIRST, Talk to Dad about this and if he's not willing to realise he could have caused your death on that day..Well I would not climb for Dad again, My son is our climber and i'm watching his back all the time..your safety in the tree is your groundies first concern, He is your eyes in the back of your head,The climber and the man on the ropes literally have each others lives in each others hands. Generally the figure of 8 knot and a fishermans knot are used to attach the climbing rope to your karabiner then to the harness as it is known for reliability, with the bowline make sure you have a long tail on it for sliping to lock the as sometimes they do. Good Luck JayD __________________ Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory

6th January 2008, 01:39 AM	#6 (permalink)
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 428	Re: conventional figure-8 The major problem with fisherman's knots and figure 8 knots is if they become loaded it can be difficult to untie. You could try a double loop figure 8 to counter that a little bit...This double loop knot also doubles up on safety. I'll post pics if you don't know the knot and how to tie it. Very simple You can load a bowline with a 100.000 pound load sort of speak, and still it's easy to untie. When practicing this knot you should be able to tie that knot correctly, behind your back while talking to your girlfriend about whatever issue you may have and watch the telli at the same time, because it is one of the most VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT knots in tree-care... I'm serious about this.... also learn to put the safety on automatically, this means that you must always tie a single figure of 8 or a stopper knot in the free end of the line, wich must be at least 1.50 feet of length (with the figure of 8 already tied in)... Like Jayd said that's your life insurance and the knot is simply not complete without it. Bowlines tend to run through a bit, especially when the load comes on and off regularly. A WORD OF ADVICE... the knowledge of knots and hitches is not to be taken lightly!! You must master them and be able to tie them without thinking or seeing... Why? Because when you're starting out as a climber ,climbing may seem difficult and you'll be very tired after a short period of time. Not only phisically tired but mentally as well. That's exactly the time when catastrophic failure occurs during tying of knots. Go low and slow when you're trying something new, and always gently test-load your knot before releasing your other tie-in. I kept a six feet long rope of 4 mm in my pocket for about two years. It gives you the opportunity to practice your knots everywhere when you're bored or get stuck in traffic or something like that. Steering wheels and gear shifters are nice when practicing rigging knots actually. Just don't tie 'em together as I did in a traffic jam once.... AND ALWAYS REMEMBER :Trees and gravity have their own special way of dealing with over-confident climbers...

6th January 2008, 03:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,270	Re: conventional figure-8 Heh, I was actually sitting in the parking lot at the drugstore the other day with a NFPA biner clipped to my steering wheel and doing some knots... For your harness tie in I'd recommend a "figure 8 follow through" with a stopper knot, or a double-loop figure 8 like Quercus mentioned. We used the figure 8 follow through to tie in thousands of people over a decade where I worked and never had any problem; just leave plenty of tail, don't tie them short. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

6th January 2008, 09:12 AM	#9 (permalink)
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 428	Re: conventional figure-8 I kinda sensed that...

6th January 2008, 07:38 AM	#8 (permalink)
Tree Machine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 569	You guy DO know I was joking, right?

6th January 2008, 11:12 AM	#10 (permalink)
arborjockey Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: hawaii. ohio. oregon. california Posts: 127	Re: conventional figure-8 True arborist work at the top speed of safe. The first person who taught me rigging techniques told me strait faced "If anyone on the ground EVER tells you to speed up. Climb down and go home". Never pull on tree with a winch while your in a tree. A good climber was killed when the cable broke, hit him in the hard and split his head. Tell your uncle to learn mechanical advantages by using ropes and blocks/pulleys(fiddleblock). You can get a more even, controlled pull.

6th January 2008, 04:13 PM	#11 (permalink)
shaggs Mature tree Join Date: May 2007 Location: sydney Posts: 462	Re: conventional figure-8 Young Bull, I think you got your answers here mate, with alot of good info. The guys are straight up because this is a very serious topic. You have to tell him straight up too. Even get him on TW to ask his own questions. Let us know how you go. When i first learnt my knots and thought I knew them. Thats when my old man made me tie them blindfolded or behind my back or above my head....correct tail, dressing n all. Even emergency procedures like tieing a bowline around yourself one handed etc. Now I never think of it but are very glad for it.

8th January 2008, 02:27 AM	#12 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,847	Re: conventional figure-8 Now the golden question ... was the section back cut or not? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th January 2008, 02:27 AM	#13 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,270	Re: conventional figure-8 Welcome to TreeWorld Urbantreemanagement!!! I may have misunderstood, but is YoungBull your son? I'm a rather headstrong young man in my young twenties as well, the only advice I can give is: make sure he uses two tie in points. Eventually he'll learn that he's fallible through his own mistakes, but it may take some time. In the meantime, as long as he's using propper equipment and techniques it should get him through his initial learning phase. Us youngin's can be difficult to teach since, well, we know everything of course!!! I told my dad the other day; the older I get, the smarter I realize he is Just stick with him and hopefully his learning curve will increase proportionally along with his safety. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

8th January 2008, 03:18 AM	#15 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,847	Re: conventional figure-8 Young Bull might need a kick in the ass then. I dont see anything wrong using mechanical devices and advantages in tree work. There's people around who think you shouldn't even fell trees with trucks etc ... boohoo for them, inexperienced, panic ridden or simply got no idea about doing it. We actually did it as part of our course. Oh, I suppose those people shouldn't use GRCS's or cranes either. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th January 2008, 03:30 AM	#16 (permalink)
JayD Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 931	Re: conventional figure-8 By the sounds of things, you may have given him a bit of a ride when it broke away?? We use my 4by at times and the winch aswell to pull over a tree where site conditions are right, As it was explained to me by a very smart arb,JM if your reading, With mechanicl advantages,such as the GRCS,with the winching power of these devices they have steped up considerably in hardware but the problem lies after that with human error..their technique does not step up fast enough...and they overload limbs that cannot handle the stress of winching causing break outs..etc..etc. __________________ Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory