Backup descender on single line

Oxman · 10th February 2008, 01:42 PM

Ever use another descender as a backup while on rappel?

Ekka · 10th February 2008, 01:48 PM

Nope, but how does it go?

I'd say smooth as silk.

TREEMONKEY · 10th February 2008, 02:21 PM

I have never used a back up ascender in trees but i have for caving, urban high angle rescue, and rappelling for beginners.
I would usually use a prussik but for rescue a second line with a tandem prussik belay.

Oxman · 10th February 2008, 02:27 PM

Hey Treemonkey,

Theres a typo in the email address on yer home page. It's spelled @aperfectrei.com

Therrin · 10th February 2008, 02:28 PM

I used to regularly use a prussik as a backup with a normal descender... never two descenders together.

Looks like a smooth setup though, I agree with Ekka on that.

Little redundant maybe. Are you worried about the descender breaking? About not enough friction on the line? About the cam-lever braking on your Petzl 'stop' descender?

I've stopped using figure-of-8 descenders all together except for backup use. Tired of having ropes all twisted up.

I use a BMS rack now.
- easy to lock off
- doesn't twist the ropes
- can handle up to two lines at the same time

Using the Petzl 'stop' descender, with a prussik/hitch backup... you should be just fine, and that combo won't twist the rope at all like your figure-of-8 will. Lighter weight too.
- can add or subtract bars to change the amount of friction
- rated to 20,000 lbs

Using all three bars, with just my body weight, I hardly go anywhere. Don't even have to use a brake hand, it just slowly lowers on its own. Using 2 of the 3 bars is just right... one bar gives a quick descent, but needs serious attention on brake hand and a glove.

Just thought I'd mention it since alot of you arb folk aren't familiar with racks.

TREEMONKEY · 10th February 2008, 02:37 PM

Oxman thanks
I actually haven't set up the email address yet but i didn't notice the mistake thanks.

Therrin the bar rack is a very nice rappel my favorite.

Oxman · 10th February 2008, 02:39 PM

Thanx fer the rack pitch. Here's a pic of a sure fire stable method of rapelling. Recommend having the tail of the line a bit above the ground, so it can untwist the double amount of coils this twists.

Want to use the Stop with small diameter line (3/8", or 9.8mm), in the rain, while carrying a heavy load on rappel.

Say, a rock climber said to backup the primary descender with a Petzl Shunt mounted on the right leg stap. Any problems with an upward load on an arborist (New Tribe) saddle?

Yer from my kids neighborhood, who lives in Canyon Country, California. I used to do tree work in Los Angeles in the 70's and early 80's. Worked up & down the Hollywood Hills.

Therrin · 10th February 2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Want to use the Stop with small diameter line (3/8", or 9.8mm), in the rain, while carrying a heavy load on rappel.

With something like that I've no qualms about your setup. Safety comes before being annoyed with a twisted rope.

Haven't used the Shunt personally outdoors, but I'm familiar with it. Used to work at Sport Chalet (sporting goods store around here) and got to play with stuff. Sounds like alot of work to me? Sounds a bit excessive. I think you've got it figured out already.

I'd still suggest using a rack, and maybe your Petzl Stop with it, if you really wanted. But a rack is all inclusive and takes care of all those problems.
I don't know about the New Tribe saddles, maybe Quercus or someone else does though.

I've been working in Canyon Country, Valencia, Sand Canyon, and Live Oak Springs Canyon alot lately!! Good folks down in there, nice people. Love working there. It's a higher class mentality but they value proper working procedures. Not much hacking going on there.

Glad to hear we've got some familiar stomping grounds.

As for the pic, Yes, it's a "stable" method, but it required tending. Especially with small diameter line. Crossover is possible where the rope runs next to itself around the 8. Also can cause rope-against-rope wear which isn't good with synthetic lines. I'd suggest your Stop & 8 before using this method on its own.

arborjockey · 10th February 2008, 03:56 PM

Therrin do you coil up your rope or put it in a bag? The reason I ask is that you say your rope keeps getting twisted. And as far as the decending devices....come on you guys don't really hook all that stuff just for a tree do you? Racks and figure 8's, fisk descenders and all that stuff takes time

to get ready. Time is $. Just redirecting my rope drives me nuts now days let alone hooking in devices. Dont get me wrong Im a tech. head but theres a time and a place. I use a V.T. friction hitch. No frills no thrills 3/8 kevlar rope with two bowlines at the bottom. E-bay had 65' of 3/8 for $47.00 that would last me 15 years. Backing up mechanical devices with a friction hitch? Why not just the hitch? I'v found glazing hard to come by

Therrin · 10th February 2008, 06:03 PM

Actually, yes, I do take the time to do it. It doesn't frustrate me though, done it enough times, trained with alot of the stuff with rock&rescue.

Could be different strokes for different folks? <shrugs>

The figure-of-8 descender twists the rope, not how I coil it. And I store it in a bag, but coil it first. I used to use a figure-of-8 as my main rigging descender. Drop stuff that weighs between 100 and 800 lbs on the same rope, over and over through that descender and it fooks your rope up. Ugh...

Time is $$, granted, but often I don't have a bunch of jobs in one day to go rushing off to, just schedule them so I have a job every day when I can. Lets me keep from getting rushed, I just take my time and cruise along.

This thread was situation specific Arborjockey. He wasn't asking about using this technique for *everything*, it specifically had to do with descending in poor conditions, using small diameter line, with a ...."heavy load" (

) with safety being the utmost importance. It's not really about a tree rigging method for regular use.

arborjockey · 10th February 2008, 06:24 PM

How come you coil it before it gos in the bag? Well if you do, try switching hands every 3rd coil you make. That will help when uncoiled,I hope. Don't you have to feed your rope into the figure 8 when theirs a lot of tail weght. We had to use descenders in the tower world and it was frustrating. Feeding the rope int a descender for the first 200'. I do bow out the fact your not in a rush. It always seems my boss is staring at his watch. He has everything calculated down to the dollar. I have only missed one or two bids in 4 months. Trying to keep up and stay safe. My point being, we descend out of trees that are an average height of 40-60'. Average...When your tied in with a traditional hitch or advanced use it to come down. You gotta take that thing up with you climb around with it, just to use it for 10 sec. on the way down. But different strokes foe different folks.

Therrin · 10th February 2008, 06:37 PM

Mmm, no I don't carry it around with me all the time.

If I'm rigging down a large dismantle, then yes, I take it up (my big BMS rack) and use it to lower everything.

Typically my groundies are not rope savvy and the descent is controlled from where I am at.
I know that sounds pretty crazy to some of you, but you work with what you've got, lol.

Especially when dismantling big dead pines, or worse, live ones(heavy!), hanging over houses... I trust myself most. Granted, it takes time, but at the end of the day, I'm held responsible, not my groundies.

Whats this about feeding a rope through it???? you take a bight of rope, pass it up through the big hole in the figure-of-8 descender, and loop it around the bottom.... walla! done!

did you mean actually feeding it through by hand??

That'd take forever!! The rack is the same way, every other inner bar unclips on just one side and swings free to allow a bight of rope to be passed up and over the bar, then it is clipped back in.
No threading whatsoever.
Quick, efficient, easy, simple... Not time consuming.

arborjockey · 10th February 2008, 07:01 PM

What I meant by feeding it in was.... oh I just looked at your public forum and your 6'6 which may not apply to big guys. On D.R.T. when you have 60+feet of tail weight on your rope I have found (beeing 165lbs) that the rope wont just feed into the descender you have to physically feed part of it in. My weight wont overcome the tail weight. You said that you use your rack as a friction device in rigging as well

Hve you ever seen anyone use one of those Lock Jacks from Sherril? Kinda spendy but neat

Therrin · 10th February 2008, 07:17 PM

Oxman, sorry if we hijacked your thread!!!

AJ,

Ya caught me, I gotta admit.

Truth to tell... yeah, used it for both for a bit when I first got it. Used it for both applications trying to decide to shell out the $$ and buy another smaller/lighter one for just personal use.
Didn't shock load it, and didn't lower anything heavier than I am. Figured that evened it up a bit. After a project that I used it for some big heavy stuff I never did again for bodyweight; just wouldn't after that. I can see the risk there, dangerous stuff.

I use an atc mostly for personal belay now, and the 8 on occasion, but not regularly. Operating budget was crummy for a while, picked back up and I'll be buying an aluminum rack for personal use now. I just really like them =)

Good call.
I'm not "dyed in the wool" yet, so my techniques and decisions don't always follow the path that you're taught and used to. I appreciate you lookin out for my safety though. I figure if I'm shamed enough publicly it'll turn my practices around alot quicker!!!

George Hayduke · 11th February 2008, 11:46 PM

Everyone needs to read some research about rap backups.

"rappel backups" - Google Search

This will get you started.

Therrin · 12th February 2008, 12:23 AM

Well that's easy to say, any of use could have Google'd it for the easy way out.

If you had read all the way through the thread, George, you'd have noticed that we mentioned that this is for a very specific situation, and not for regular use rappelling.

I'm starting to notice a trend here. You're maybe reading the first couple posts, then posting, as you did in another thread. Try reading the WHOLE thing, so that you're not covering territory we've already been over.

10th February 2008, 01:48 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Re: Backup descender on single line Nope, but how does it go? I'd say smooth as silk. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

10th February 2008, 02:21 PM	#3 (permalink)
TREEMONKEY Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ONTARIO, CANADA Posts: 94	Re: Backup descender on single line I have never used a back up ascender in trees but i have for caving, urban high angle rescue, and rappelling for beginners. I would usually use a prussik but for rescue a second line with a tandem prussik belay. __________________

10th February 2008, 02:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
Oxman Sappling Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 17	Re: Backup descender on single line Hey Treemonkey, Theres a typo in the email address on yer home page. It's spelled @aperfectrei.com

10th February 2008, 02:28 PM	#5 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Re: Backup descender on single line I used to regularly use a prussik as a backup with a normal descender... never two descenders together. Looks like a smooth setup though, I agree with Ekka on that. Little redundant maybe. Are you worried about the descender breaking? About not enough friction on the line? About the cam-lever braking on your Petzl 'stop' descender? I've stopped using figure-of-8 descenders all together except for backup use. Tired of having ropes all twisted up. I use a BMS rack now. - easy to lock off - doesn't twist the ropes - can handle up to two lines at the same time Using the Petzl 'stop' descender, with a prussik/hitch backup... you should be just fine, and that combo won't twist the rope at all like your figure-of-8 will. Lighter weight too. - can add or subtract bars to change the amount of friction - rated to 20,000 lbs Using all three bars, with just my body weight, I hardly go anywhere. Don't even have to use a brake hand, it just slowly lowers on its own. Using 2 of the 3 bars is just right... one bar gives a quick descent, but needs serious attention on brake hand and a glove. Just thought I'd mention it since alot of you arb folk aren't familiar with racks. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

10th February 2008, 02:37 PM	#6 (permalink)
TREEMONKEY Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ONTARIO, CANADA Posts: 94	Re: Backup descender on single line Oxman thanks I actually haven't set up the email address yet but i didn't notice the mistake thanks. Therrin the bar rack is a very nice rappel my favorite. __________________

10th February 2008, 03:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
arborjockey Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: hawaii. ohio. oregon. california Posts: 127	Re: Backup descender on single line Therrin do you coil up your rope or put it in a bag? The reason I ask is that you say your rope keeps getting twisted. And as far as the decending devices....come on you guys don't really hook all that stuff just for a tree do you? Racks and figure 8's, fisk descenders and all that stuff takes time to get ready. Time is $. Just redirecting my rope drives me nuts now days let alone hooking in devices. Dont get me wrong Im a tech. head but theres a time and a place. I use a V.T. friction hitch. No frills no thrills 3/8 kevlar rope with two bowlines at the bottom. E-bay had 65' of 3/8 for $47.00 that would last me 15 years. Backing up mechanical devices with a friction hitch? Why not just the hitch? I'v found glazing hard to come by

10th February 2008, 06:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Re: Backup descender on single line Actually, yes, I do take the time to do it. It doesn't frustrate me though, done it enough times, trained with alot of the stuff with rock&rescue. Could be different strokes for different folks? <shrugs> The figure-of-8 descender twists the rope, not how I coil it. And I store it in a bag, but coil it first. I used to use a figure-of-8 as my main rigging descender. Drop stuff that weighs between 100 and 800 lbs on the same rope, over and over through that descender and it fooks your rope up. Ugh... Time is $$, granted, but often I don't have a bunch of jobs in one day to go rushing off to, just schedule them so I have a job every day when I can. Lets me keep from getting rushed, I just take my time and cruise along. This thread was situation specific Arborjockey. He wasn't asking about using this technique for everything, it specifically had to do with descending in poor conditions, using small diameter line, with a ...."heavy load" () with safety being the utmost importance. It's not really about a tree rigging method for regular use. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

10th February 2008, 06:24 PM	#11 (permalink)
arborjockey Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: hawaii. ohio. oregon. california Posts: 127	Re: Backup descender on single line How come you coil it before it gos in the bag? Well if you do, try switching hands every 3rd coil you make. That will help when uncoiled,I hope. Don't you have to feed your rope into the figure 8 when theirs a lot of tail weght. We had to use descenders in the tower world and it was frustrating. Feeding the rope int a descender for the first 200'. I do bow out the fact your not in a rush. It always seems my boss is staring at his watch. He has everything calculated down to the dollar. I have only missed one or two bids in 4 months. Trying to keep up and stay safe. My point being, we descend out of trees that are an average height of 40-60'. Average...When your tied in with a traditional hitch or advanced use it to come down. You gotta take that thing up with you climb around with it, just to use it for 10 sec. on the way down. But different strokes foe different folks.

10th February 2008, 06:37 PM	#12 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Re: Backup descender on single line Mmm, no I don't carry it around with me all the time. If I'm rigging down a large dismantle, then yes, I take it up (my big BMS rack) and use it to lower everything. Typically my groundies are not rope savvy and the descent is controlled from where I am at. I know that sounds pretty crazy to some of you, but you work with what you've got, lol. Especially when dismantling big dead pines, or worse, live ones(heavy!), hanging over houses... I trust myself most. Granted, it takes time, but at the end of the day, I'm held responsible, not my groundies. Whats this about feeding a rope through it???? you take a bight of rope, pass it up through the big hole in the figure-of-8 descender, and loop it around the bottom.... walla! done! did you mean actually feeding it through by hand?? That'd take forever!! The rack is the same way, every other inner bar unclips on just one side and swings free to allow a bight of rope to be passed up and over the bar, then it is clipped back in. No threading whatsoever. Quick, efficient, easy, simple... Not time consuming. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

10th February 2008, 07:01 PM	#13 (permalink)
arborjockey Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: hawaii. ohio. oregon. california Posts: 127	Re: Backup descender on single line What I meant by feeding it in was.... oh I just looked at your public forum and your 6'6 which may not apply to big guys. On D.R.T. when you have 60+feet of tail weight on your rope I have found (beeing 165lbs) that the rope wont just feed into the descender you have to physically feed part of it in. My weight wont overcome the tail weight. You said that you use your rack as a friction device in rigging as well Hve you ever seen anyone use one of those Lock Jacks from Sherril? Kinda spendy but neat

10th February 2008, 07:17 PM	#14 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Re: Backup descender on single line Oxman, sorry if we hijacked your thread!!! AJ, Ya caught me, I gotta admit. Truth to tell... yeah, used it for both for a bit when I first got it. Used it for both applications trying to decide to shell out the $$ and buy another smaller/lighter one for just personal use. Didn't shock load it, and didn't lower anything heavier than I am. Figured that evened it up a bit. After a project that I used it for some big heavy stuff I never did again for bodyweight; just wouldn't after that. I can see the risk there, dangerous stuff. I use an atc mostly for personal belay now, and the 8 on occasion, but not regularly. Operating budget was crummy for a while, picked back up and I'll be buying an aluminum rack for personal use now. I just really like them =) Good call. I'm not "dyed in the wool" yet, so my techniques and decisions don't always follow the path that you're taught and used to. I appreciate you lookin out for my safety though. I figure if I'm shamed enough publicly it'll turn my practices around alot quicker!!! __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

11th February 2008, 11:46 PM	#15 (permalink)
George Hayduke Banned Join Date: May 2007 Location: Slickrock, USA Posts: 93	Re: Backup descender on single line Everyone needs to read some research about rap backups. "rappel backups" - Google Search This will get you started.

12th February 2008, 12:23 AM	#16 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Re: Backup descender on single line Well that's easy to say, any of use could have Google'd it for the easy way out. If you had read all the way through the thread, George, you'd have noticed that we mentioned that this is for a very specific situation, and not for regular use rappelling. I'm starting to notice a trend here. You're maybe reading the first couple posts, then posting, as you did in another thread. Try reading the WHOLE thing, so that you're not covering territory we've already been over.

18th February 2008, 10:19 PM	#17 (permalink)