Aerial's Climbing Thread

[sawsong]

personally Aerial I would stop for a moment, just take a step back, and stop wasting money. Do what I did, ASK people exactly what it is you need, and what they would suggest for you to buy. then and only then, spend the money.

Combining harnesses is certainly not something I would suggest. it is bound to be uncomfortable and they will have accelerated wear I should think. I only lasted a fortnight climbing in a rock harness before i upgraded to the real deal.

as has been said, Knots first, hardware second. tied correctly, the knots are foolproof, the hardware always has its quirks.

and as for how to bodythrust or footlock. They are both incredibly easy disciplines to learn, however hard to master.

just for point of comparison, to help show you that you're probably not affording yourself the kind of comfort and security that you should be, here is my 'beginner' climbing setup. compare how it looks similar to yours, but more importantly how it looks different

Jim



i realise theres a screwgate on there, but it is only used for hanging things onto my saddle etc. although theres some argument now that you should only affix a chainsaw with a triple locker too. nobody seen the petzl caritool then?

[Aerial]

Originally Posted by newguy18

... you need to master drt before you need to learn srt.Also single line rock rappeling is worlds awa from tree climbing.Bodythrusting is the one you should start with.I also recomended you start off with a fool proof knot like tautline... forget using the ascenders... in time you'll use them...

My split tail and hip prusik came in today and I can start working with them. I rigged up a drt in the front yard to try them out. Here is a photo of them both tied on my rope:



Note the small pulley mounted on the hip prusik. I added the pulley to it instead of the split tail. It pulls both the Blake's knot on the split tail and the wrap of the hip prusik up the rope effortlessly.



I use one of my Jumar ascenders to pull up with one arm while bringing up the slack end with the other. Not too bad, on long ascents I can switch hands or rest whenever I need to.



I think the hip prusik with pulley slack tender would be plenty all by itself, but I wanted to have both systems available to me. Especially when I am able to trunk walk or bodythrust.

Aerial

[newguy18]

Good,you need to get the hang off that and then start limbwalking.

[Eric Frei]

Originally Posted by Aerial

I use one of my Jumar ascenders to pull up with one arm while bringing up the slack end with the other. Not too bad, on long ascents I can switch hands or rest whenever I need to.

Aerial, please load your pics to this server rather than embed them the way you have, me and some others do go through and change them over, boring task.

Secondly, that's such an odd set up I cant really make it out. But I will say you keep doing that I feel you'll get a nasty case of tennis elbow. Can you put a foot loop on that jumar?!

[Eric Frei]

I'm still looking at this part wondering.

[Aerial]

That's a great rig sawsong. I wish I had the advice of experts when getting into this. Of course then I probably wouldn't have done it.

My climbing lanyard for example. The first one I got with my "starter kit" is just a nylon strap, not very supple and no stiffness whatever. Very hard to advance. Then I got a pole strap, great for poles I expect, but not ideal for trees.

Finally after finding this forum, I discovered what really works. My flipline has not come yet, so I have not been able to try it out.

The same goes for a fall arrest system. My experience as a parachute rigger didn't give me much confidence working with ropes. Besides that was decades ago and I was currently only confident in my ability to tie a bowline. Now that a great knot and all, but it was all I had.

And that's how the retracting cable lifeline came into the picture. It's pretty slick, well tested, and meets current standards. I feel confident that, had I fallen, it would have saved me. Of course it could have let me in a position where I would have needed to be rescued just to get back on earth.

Since then, with the help of this forum (and the Climber's Companion), I have added the Blake hitch and Yosemite tieoff (on my Bowline) to my knots I can tie without looking at a picture.

Now I must say, having learned the knots and put them into use in a limited testing mode, I'm a total convert to their use. The Blakes Hitch is an elegant piece of rope work. The Hip Prusik seems to work well too. Two wraps and through the loop? I hope I got that right, it seemed intuitive, and it worked. (backed up by the Blakes Hitch).

I'll repost the photo from the 'BINERS! thread to show my first use of these knots. Please note that this rig was just set 15 feet in a small easily climbed tree. I never got higher than 10' so it was just a gear test, not a climb of any magnitude. Poll question: Should I have worn my helmet anyway?

Oops! I'm on the wrong computer for posting photos, I'm using the wife's Macbook while having my morning coffee on the couch. I could do it from this Mac, but I'd have to type in URLs and passwords and such. It's easier to just walk into the next room and wake up my Powerbook. Like all my Macs, I almost never turn it off, I just let them go to sleep when not being used.

But this is Aerial's Climbing thread (Thanks Therrin and Ekka) not Aerial's computer symposium, that thread would be here:

Mac vs. PC?

Aerial

[Aerial]

Thanks Ekka, now I don't have to change computers!

The parts you have circled in blue are not tied together, it just appears that the split tail goes though the hip prusik somehow. This is not the case. They remain wholly separate.

What do you think about my addition of the pulley to the hip prusik?

Aerial

[Aerial]

Originally Posted by Ekka

Aerial, please load your pics to this server rather than embed them the way you have, me and some others do go through and change them over, boring task.

Secondly, that's such an odd set up I cant really make it out. But I will say you keep doing that I feel you'll get a nasty case of tennis elbow. Can you put a foot loop on that jumar?!

Ekka, could you link me to a thread which explains how you access your server to upload photos?

Basically as I explained in the post above, the set up is a Split Tail and a Hip Prusik on the same line. I'm not saying that this is the setup I'm going to use to climb with, it's just that once I had them tied on it seemed prudent to test them together. It seemed to work. The pulley on the Hip Prusik advanced both the wrap and the Blakes Hitch without problems.

Aerial

[Eric Frei]

How to post| add a picture or file| embed picture

[Aerial]

As to the Jumars, I have fabricated some loops, but I used one just as a secure hand hold. Getting a loop on it would probably make it much easier on the arms. I'm still very much in the testing and learning mode here.

I've got another tree picked out for climbing practice, one that I can use my spikes on, and one that will give a good tie in point for my rope work as well. This is not the tree I depicted in the other thread ("Is This Tree Safe To Climb"), as that one has too much dead wood overhanging too be in, under or around.

I'll upload a photo when I figure out how.

Aerial

[newguy18]

if you need a mechanical advantage to help you ascend why not just buy a pantin?If yuor blake's is tied right[which it is]then there should be no need for the hip prusik.personaaly i think the bridge is to long as well but everyone's differnt.

[Aerial]

Originally Posted by newguy18

if you need a mechanical advantage... why not just buy a pantin?I... i think the bridge is to long as well...

I'm thinkin' winch of some sort, but I'll try to find out what a "pantin" is.

The bridge thing, my first try with a nice tidy blake was out of reach. I started out on a bucket for self rescue. I fixed that and brought it just within reach. Is shorter better?

Aerial

[newguy18]

This is a pantin,
http://www.gonzoguanogear.com/images/pantin.jpg
With your bridge your suppose to keep it within arms reach so when you pull down you can easily advance the knot.Also so youcan get an easy grasp on it to descend.Imo the tautline works better than a blakes with a micro pulley but then again i prefer tautline to blakes.Use what your comfortable with and what you can tie quickly and get it right every time.

[Aerial]

OK I Googled "Pantin" up and came up with the foot mounted ascender thingy.

How do you maintain tension on the slack end of that thing to advance it?

Aerial

[sawsong]

same way as footlocking. once a few feet up, it self tends by the weight of the rope alone

[quercus]

Originally Posted by Ekka

I'm still looking at this part wondering.

I was wondering about that too... But it looks like there's two bights of rope with eye splices whom are spliced on the red snap hook . Never seen that before.

[quercus]

ok ok I see what I missed now...the blake's and the prussik are completely separate....

[Fairfield]

this is the pantin in use on a SRT, same out come on the DRT though.
ascending on Yahoo! Video

[Aerial]

Originally Posted by Ekka

How to post| add a picture or file| embed picture

Ekka, it seems as though I have reached my upload limit from the photos you loaded for me. Can you free up some space for me to attach pictures?

Aerial

[Aerial]

Originally Posted by sawsong

same way as footlocking. once a few feet up, it self tends by the weight of the rope alone

Would you define and explain "footlocking" sawsong? I gather it is a method to put tension on the tail of the rope to advance ascenders but I would like to hear a full description of the technique.

There is so much I don't know about tree work and it's rigging it's sometimes hard to follow the discussion.

Aerial

[Aerial]

Originally Posted by quercus

ok ok I see what I missed now...the blake's and the prussik are completely separate....

That photo was a poor choice because the lay of the split tail goes behind the hip prusik in such a way as to look like they are combined.

What do you think about using the two together as I have done in those photos? It seemed more logical to place the pulley on the hip prusik to advance both hitches up the rope as I pulled myself up.

Aerial

[Aerial]

Originally Posted by Fairfield

this is the pantin in use on a SRT, same out come on the DRT though.
ascending on Yahoo! Video

Great video, looks as easy as climbing a ladder. Looks like I'm going to have to get one of those.

Aerial

[sawsong]

Originally Posted by Aerial

Would you define and explain "footlocking" sawsong? I gather it is a method to put tension on the tail of the rope to advance ascenders but I would like to hear a full description of the technique.

There is so much I don't know about tree work and it's rigging it's sometimes hard to follow the discussion.

Aerial

not exactly. foot locking is a method of advancing up a rope using your legs, NOT ascenders, although an ascender may be used to secure your position while you use your feet to move up again, not the other way around.

Did you say you have a tree climber's companion?? I think you did. If you do, then i strongly suggest you read it. there is a thorough and very easy to follow explanation of footlocking and other techniques, with clear diagrams, as well as how to set up your climbing rig and how to progress. I would take no issue with you asking how to better your footlocking technique etc, but if you have the book there, asking what footlocking IS, just tells me you havent read it. Perhaps im just of the school that you use what you have first before asking, regardless, i cant explain it any clearer than it is explained in the book.

Originally Posted by Aerial

That photo was a poor choice because the lay of the split tail goes behind the hip prusik in such a way as to look like they are combined.

What do you think about using the two together as I have done in those photos? It seemed more logical to place the pulley on the hip prusik to advance both hitches up the rope as I pulled myself up.

Aerial

personally i wouldnt worry about the pulley or the prusik for the mean time. If i gather what you're doing correctly, it sounds like you are hauling "pulling" yourself up the tree when you should be walking your feed up the trunk and bodythrusting to take the weight off the rope whilst you advance your hitch. stick with your climb line and single split tail. let the rest come later. dont over complicated things just yet. theres nothing wrong with one friction hitch.
I believe Ekka climbs on a split tail and blakes setup as do hundreds of others im sure. The KISS principle is often overlooked, but clarity in the tree could be a lot more condusive to safe work than backing everything up however many times. again, just my opinion

[Therrin]

OMG!! I *finally* figured out what rymes with "dinner roll"...

it all makes sense now.

[Aerial]

Originally Posted by sawsong

... you use what you have first before asking, regardless, i cant explain it any clearer than it is explained in the book... it sounds like you are hauling "pulling" yourself up the tree when you should be walking your feed up the trunk and bodythrusting to take the weight off the rope whilst you advance your hitch. stick with your climb line and single split tail. let the rest come later...

Thanks for the tip about the Climbers Companion. I rigged a climb line in a different tree, on that facilitates trunk walking. I rigged the pulley to the split tail and it worked fine. I had a little trouble controlling the decent speed, I suppose it takes practice.

As far as the rest coming later, it came yesterday. I bought a Petzel Stop descender and it works real well for ascents as well. Descents are effortless and very controllable.

I use the Jumar ascender with it to get a good grip on the rope. I just ordered a pair of the pantin things for free rope ascents. The video posted above convinced me, that and Ekka's comment about "Tennis Elbow".

I'll post photos once Ekka frees up some space on his server for me.

Aerial

[newguy18]

Originally Posted by Therrin

OMG!! I *finally* figured out what rymes with "dinner roll"...

it all makes sense now.

[Aerial]

Ha Ha Therrin and NewGuy, but would anyone buy this gear just to troll an obscure forum half a world away?



Apologies to Ekka for the photo post, but I had to defend myself from false allegations being repeated by certain forum members.

Aerial

[Aerial]

But back on topic - In the above photo please note the keyring 'biner with quick release swivel, also a keyring item.

I incorporated the tiny 'biner and swivel after reading here that someone used shoelaces to rig his pulley up. I figured right there that this knot advancer was not subject to any dynamic forces and failure would be an inconvenience at most.

Am I right in this assumption? Anybody here not like it as a pulley tender? Is it a legal piece of gear used as it is?

Aerial

[Therrin]

An obscure forum eh?

I was tempted to think that most people would do all the research FIRST, before spending a couple $K on gear; and would only buy gear that's already proven before they go and start modifying and going outside the box.

Who suggested the Petzl Stop descender?

Anyhow, it just looks like you're getting all gear fanatic about it before you know how the stuff works. $1500 for a single piece of gear which has limited potential compared to the current systems seems like a fair stretch.

Have fun, just try not to kill yourself.
(or anyone else)
Sounds kinda silly to have to say huh? What'd you have done had your wife not been home and you were hangin there bent in half?
I'd suggest you get a chest harness. Helps keep ya upright if you're not able keep yourself up.

My only suggestion as far as the keychain biner, is to make it a different color from your safety biners. The other's may have some other suggestions for that though.

[Aerial]

Originally Posted by Therrin

An obscure forum eh?... only buy gear that's already proven before they go and start modifying and going outside the box... Who suggested the Petzl Stop descender?... Have fun, just try not to kill yourself... What'd you have done had your wife not been home and you were hangin there bent in half?

I mean no disrespect, but as fine a forum as this is, it's no /. or Yahoo group. I think you'd have to have a pretty stromg interest in trees to even show up here.

I'll admit to being a "gear fanatic", you should see my camera gear! And if you have read the "Mac vs PC" thread you get an idea of my computer setup being a bit gear heavy for most home users.

As far as working "outside the box", well I came into this pretty far outside the box. My efforts here are to to learn the time honored techniques, while at the same time exploring what's out there in the world of climbing, ultimately finding what works for me.

The Petzel Stop Descender is where my quest for gear to climb trees as well as do a little rappelling on the side lead me. No one here suggested or even mentioned it as far as I know. Is it considered a good piece of gear for tree work?

Sawsong got his first attempt at tying a Blakes Hitch wrong, "suislide hitch" was what I believe it was called, I had better luck at tying my Blakes Hitch, and it worked beautifully, but I didn't like the decent control, I worried about melting the rope. The Petzel Stop cured that for me, and I can put it on faster and with less chance of error, than a split tail. What's not to like?

What would I have done if the wife had not been there to rescue me?



Cut my throat to avoid humiliation?

I've been waiting to post that in the "Do You Carry a Knife" thread but I'll do it here since you asked.

Aerial