Aerial rigging & lowering whilst aloft in tree - Attn: Tree Machine

Straw

Hi, I am new to the forum and have attempted to search for the tree rigging info I am looking for. I saw a few comments from you "Tree Machine" that made me join the forum to ask you a few questions. I attempted to send you a PM but am not allowed?? Searching has been a hassle with the "image verification" at practically every move on this forum ( what gives with so much security?) So I am forced to make this post hoping you can contact me here?

I am looking for info on lowering branches from "aloft". Specifically if there is any gear or specialized equipment I should get. My gm is unable to work for 8weeks (eye surgery) and I am so remote there is no one to take his place and I have several trees I need to lower branches from by myself. I called Buckingham's and asked if the port a wrap could be used up in a tree and they said no. I keep looking at the port a wrap and wondering why I couldn't use it in the tree. I am hoping you can help me.
Thanks,
Straw

newguy18

Do you know how to take trunk wraps?Thats more than sufficent,i rig everything by myself with trunks wraps,oh and a porta wrap can be used aloft.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

JohN Dee

I've always been interested and intrigued by you guru's of rigging... Tree Machine, Ace... How do you untie the branch whilst you are aloft in the tree with no one on the ground to assist you?

__________________
We are what we repeatedly do... Excellence then, is not an act, but HABIT...

Red : Green : Blue

TrevMcRev

Not a necessity, but the mini portawrap is suitable for in-tree rigging with 1/2" line. Tree Machine is the guru of working aloft solo though, so hopefully he chimes in...

I'll try his patented method...

Click click...clickity click, come in tree machine, do you copy...

We summon thee come forth and speaketh thy solo rigging skills...

Eric Frei

Security is strong for new people, I have disabled the ReCaptcha function on the search though, the rest of the security measures remain.

What gives with so much security, it's called trolls and spam, notice how there's so little of it?

By disabling the PM function it made you post, chances are then a discussion could evolve, and that's part of why we are here. If all correspondence was emails and PM's then might as well shut the joint down.

You can lower branches by not tying them off, lower them DRT, when it hits the deck pull your rope back up. If the branch doesn't have suitable forks etc to run the rope through take up a stack of web loops with biners. You tie one end of the lower rope off somewhere near where you are working, run the other end through the biner or fork, take some wraps on a branch up there etc and cut the section off, lower it to the ground DRT and once the section is on the ground pull your rope back up.

I made bit of a diagram to get you thinking.

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________

Tree Machine

Are you sure you want to do a thread about this? There are guys who will do stupid things with these methods and now you've got it coming back to me.


I'm wondering why I ever mentioned this in the first place. I think it was because if you were to do an aerial rescue, the method for lowering an unconscious person or lowering a limb might be very much the same method, so it doesn't hurt to stay in perpetual practice.

I'm not sure. There's the guys that will come into this thread and spout that its absolutely absurd to lower limbs out of the tree from up in the tree. I've probably lowered in the tens of thousands by now, without incident, so I wouldn't even know how to answer them.


Sounds silly for me to even comment. Why don't you stay traditional, slow and requiring two people? That's always gotten the job done.

TrevMcRev

Way to cover your azz TM! Thats cool, i understand you've copped flack for this topic around the forums. I think we are a pretty civilised bunch here though. Personally i have always been intrigued by your innovative methods and see no problem with controlling the rigging from up there at all. I had done it occaisionally, not so much solo, but either with a noobie groundie or simply when there's only 2 of you with a long drag to the chipper you can have stuff going up n down while groundie focuses on keeping the brush moving from dropzone to chip area.

I guess if Straw searches he will find.

newguy18

The best way is to do it is first undersand the action the limb needs to take,do you want it to swing away from something? if so rig overhead,tie either a clove hitch or running bowline,if your not accustomed to the clove hitch,use a running bowline,pull as much slack as possible and leave a stub to dead end the line,the trickest thing is roping out a top,for that leave enough slack so it can fall below yuor feet to avoid injury.Eric,can you play with paint and show him overhead,same limb and butt hooking rigging diagrams?

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

Straw

Hi, and thank you for all the quick replies, and help with these questions. My apologies in advance for the length of this reply.

Ekka sorry I came across as "snooty" concerning the "image verification" The screen on this computer is old and very "used" and in some instances I found it almost impossible to see what the words were to fill it in (blurry and squashed). Also thank you for taking the time to make the diagram.

Newguy18 and TrevMcRev thank you for the heads up on the port-a-wrap. When I was talking to Buckingham's the girl went to ask a tech and he said it was not suitable to take the initial snap load of a falling branch (ie..if i had it tied off in the tree instead of having a ground man take controlled tension from slack) also the danger of being pulled out of the tree. I had already planned on taking smaller bites of branches in an attempt to lessen any stress on the safe working load of the unit.

Tree Machine I apologize for putting you on "the spot" so to speak and had no idea you might come under negative scrutiny for "aloft" rigging techniques. Every post I found by you during my search has confident experienced solo rigger all over it. I really just wanted to get your input on this topic as it appears to me that you use this rigging style often. I have solo lowered branches on very few occasion in a pinch, and never really set out for several large jobs doing it full time. I was just wondering what the most efficient / safest way you were doing it and what "special" equipment I could or should get. If you get a change of heart I would love to hear any input you may have on the technique's you use to lower "aloft" so readily. Or if there are threads I am missing on the forum a nudge in the right direction would be cool.

I am wondering if I should get a new rope and if so whats my best bet to drop around 2500 or more, 8"-45" diameter branches solo? I would like to have the option of both false and natural crotch drop points. As stated above a 1/2 port-a-wrap can be useful in the tree. Would 1/2 Arbor-plex be adequate(climbing line?) or should I get 1/2 tree master or is there a better choice I am missing? Should I scrap 1/2 and go larger? I'm wondering if shock absorbing choker straps are in order to minimize the stress on the port-a-warp since Buckingham was against using one in a tree for solo drops. So many questions, I know lol. I'm a Virgo what can I say.

Most of the trees are huge cotton woods with around 8' bases 100' or more tall and giant canopies. One has already "shucked" a few very large branches and the tree's are all right next to buildings. ie barns, houses, sheds and garages, etc...The jobs are in remote areas that would require long drive times to any comprehensive emergency help should the need arise. So I'm preparing to take extra care to minimize fatigue and work as safe as the situation will allow. All but one of the jobs that are lined up are removals (diseased cottonwood trees). The trim job is a huge Black Walnut thats like 150 years old probably, its base is around 7' with some long branches hanging over a garage that are to be removed.

Since I did not clarify I will now. My gm will be with me on the jobs to untie knots and to keep an eye on me in the tree, he isn't supposed to lift anything heaver than a book for 8 weeks. So rather then risk his eyes we decided I would do all the lowering until his eyes are healed up. (my gm is my father so I truly do not want to put any extra stress on him. The Dr. said it was ok for him to untie knots so thats where we are at heh)

Thanks again for any and all input. I appreciate it.
Straw

jim1nz

I find this thread baffling really. So you want to lower 2500, lbs i presume, off 100+ ft tall cotton wood trees yourself from the tree with no one to go up and get you if the sh#t hits the fan....Are you serious or what? And your asking what rope is best to use, you have got to be having a laugh! Hope TM has a magical technique for you because your going to need it.

Hmm TM i did like your comment about traditional rigging being slow and requiring two people haha yea. Now thats got to be inefficient alright but like ya say it gets the job done..

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

newguy18

Jim,i rig big limbs,some well over 2' in diameter and 60' long on a regular basis,preplanning is key and i strongly advise against doing so unless its nessecary,i like 3/4" samson tree master for crotch rigging,it is however kind of difficult to tie knots until it breaks in.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

Straw

Yes I'm kind of in a bind Jim1nz.

The only other person who would "camp-out" and do these tree's with me is my brother and he is 1000 miles away dealing with his own jobs right now. He is a tree guy also. He is the one who told me he had heard of people solo lowering stuff regularly, sort of like the vibe I got from reading Tree Machines posts. I personally have always had a gm (down rigger) but times are tough and I'm pretty well forced to do this. I have mouths to feed and obligations to meet that make it so.

I have a good understanding of tree weights from working in the helicopter logging industry as well as rigging knowledge from the service, also 20+ years tree service. I have in my "kit" a field tree riggers pocket manual for when I'm in doubt I look it up. This pocket book just describes how to determine the weight of tree sections by type of wood , diameter , length, etc.. So I understand I will be scaling back the size pieces I will be cutting to accommodate the situation. I know how to do it the "old fashion way". I'm 40 years old now and want to just find the best way to solo lower branches in 2009. I was hoping to find info on updated techniques / gear to make the job of lowering from the tree easier/safer/more efficient/less fatiguing/ etc... I have never used a port-a-wrap and for all I know one type of rope may work better with it than another for what I'm going to use it for. At the same time I am attempting to address the issues Buckingham brought up in regards to using the port-a-wrap in the tree and the safe working load of the device.

Basically I'm looking to update and buy some "kit" to lower from "aloft" and want to "gleen" some info from experienced solo riggers to purchase the right stuff the first time. To help make sure I'm as up date as possible for safe and efficient solo lowering right off the start on this project.

Currently we use 3/4" Pro-master and 99.99% of the time a natural crotch from what I have read about the port-a-wrap this is not the ideal rope to use with it. Also I have never seen a port-a-wrap other than pictures and am still having a hard time picturing it under load. How it acts /responds/ etc.. After looking all the tree's over I foresee many rigging techniques being employed to finish the job's.

Thanks again for everyones input so far. cheers
Straw

jim1nz

2ft and 60ft long haha that must be some light weight wood or something because that would weigh well over 3 ton... Your lowering this by yourself in the tree natural crotch style? Seems like it would take a bit more than forward planning to me.

The thing is NG this bloke Straw wants advice on rigging big stuff by himself from the top of the tree having never done anything like it before and no one able to get him out of the tree if anything happens. I think its on the dangerous side of things dont you? Does everyone else think its sweet as or what?

Straw, it dont matter if the times are tough or not, if you get hurt or worse killed you wont be around to feed the family. Is there absolutely no other option than to do this? May be rigging small pieces where absolutely necessary and sectional felling the rest?

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

Eric Frei

I do a bit of solo rigging but nothing that big.

One of the biggest PITA's is getting sections to run, so if taking a top out nowhere near the same finesse as when a good groundy has it run.

Shit happens on the ground too, this one is common. Bloody climbing line gets caught in load or branches on it and it's hard to move. No-one to help on a tag line. Section comes down tip first and stands up making future loads get stuck.

It can be frustrating as hell, groundy's clear away the drop zone but that isn't happening for you so a build up occurs. Then you have to come down at some point and wade though a 15' pile of shit. Wait till your blocking down and that pile of shit is there!

__________________

Straw

Yes Jim,

That is the plan. To drop small sections as needed and fell the rest away from structures.

As for my rig its is set up so if "the sh@t hits the fan" as you say I can be lowered out of the tree from the ground. My father knows exactly how to run the rig. I have no worries about that.

I was hoping for some "modern" equipment / techniques to make the processes as safe and smooth as possible. I do not have a death wish and am not as "green" as I may come across on this forum. I am attempting to ask as clear as possible for any updated tips,tricks, gear recommendations, hind sight, good/bad experiences, unusual safety factors involved with a port-a-wrap in a tree, I guess. I am not looking to undermine anyones views or cause a disturbance. I am not talking about dropping 60' x 24" logs solo from a tree. I am talking about dropping around 2500 pieces of wood not weighting more than 800lb or so a section solo from the tree one after another after another and so on. I think you and others may have miss understood what I am asking. I will try to clarify.

I thought by now someone would have made a device to in tree drop sections quicker and more efficient, less fatiguingly is all. From what I was told this forum was a place to come in search of cutting edge updated modern techniques, and yes I had heard of the forum before.

I had already looked over a plethora of new "gizmo's" and pretty much figured out what was what. Came here in an attempt to fine tune the rig. Close to half of the canopy of each tree hangs over something that could be damaged. Only way I can see around it is to rent a "loader" or equivalent for each tree and that would basically mean keeping the machine all summer and that isn't going to happen lol.

What exactly is a "bloke"?

Once again thanks for any and all input/ help
Straw

newguy18

Jim,3tons ain't shit,3/4" treemaster has a breaking strength of over 15,000 pounds,but thats not the point,Straw solo rigging is tricky,unless you are accustomed to it,a block and porta wrap will make it easier.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

JohN Dee

Bahahaha! Bill you are turning more and more into a joke by the post mate. You have come along way with yourself in this industry, but I can't believe after all this time you can't compute the simplest of very few equations we have in this industry.

Yeah, go buy a 50,000lb rope buying a 18,000lb pulley and a 25,000 lowering device to lower out 20,000lb sections - what is that 93,000lb of breaking strain? Bet the frikken tree's breaking strain comes absolutely no where near that.

Damn straight it is! We just don't condone hoons or unsafe practices.

Mate, you said you could hire a loader for this job but don't want to. Go down to your bloody local pub and find the biggest bloke there and offer him some work for cash, heck for the price of a loader you could probably get a descent tree worker to assist you ++.

I like the idea of being able to do solo rigging and know Tree Machine would be a gun at it and explaining it, but if he doesn't want to then I respect his decision. If you do post it TM and people come out of the woods to bash rather keyboard hero you over it, I'll come swinging from your corner mate and I could bet there would be others too. We all know you know your stuff mate!

__________________
We are what we repeatedly do... Excellence then, is not an act, but HABIT...

Red : Green : Blue

jim1nz

Im not even going to dignify that with an answer.

Straw, thanks for clarifying, it doesn't sound quite as bad as it did from the start.

A 'bloke' is a man,male,guy,dude or what ever.

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

Eric Frei

Wouldn't be many people around who lowered a 3 ton section.

Now lets see, that makes it 6 ton on the pulley (if lowering from the ground), using USA 10% rope safety factors that means the rope the block is tied into the tree with has to be 60ton breaking, or if the person is smart it is a 30 ton breaking rope doubled.

Porty's and many devices start treating ropes over 5/8" or 3/4" like crap, also some devices will limit you to 3 wraps especially of large diameter ropes, so people bombing out 3 ton sections on conventional gear are likely talking BS.

__________________

TrevMcRev

Ok, we are talking about a waaaay bigger solo rigging job than i imagined.

What youre proposing is a fair size rigging job by any standards and if you've never even used a porty before you could be in over your head trying to take this on in the tree more or less on your own.

Surely you can hire in a casual ground guy, even one with little experience but 1/2 a clue to help, with some training it's not that hard to lower.

Drouin Tree Service

Done some pretty big crane lifts that were only a ton!!

__________________

Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

newguy18

I do solo rigging,because 90 percent of the time i work alone,always been that way,i don't use blocks ,i take trunk wraps guys,I reckon i'm gonna have to get aloft and take pics of differnt kinds of rigging and post them for straw,just so he can get a hands on view of it,i can't stress how much can go wrong quick,mainly the climber being struck with a limb or section of wood.Oh and the 3 ton limb i hung up was in a live oak i removed for my ex-boss last month,i butt hooked it with his 1 1/2"double braid line,mind you it just sweep the edge of a roof,but no damage to the house.Not the easiest way,but it worked out fine,next time i'll half something like that.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

newguy18

I find experianced climbers seem better at rigging than most groundies for some reason.I mean while assiting other climbers,not going at it solo.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

Tree Machine

Straw, I'd like to offer some basics, stuff that I think every tree guy should know and probably already does to some degree, but Newguy has to pump up his ego and offer you certain ways you can kill yourself in the tree.

When he's done with his fantastic schpeel, I mean finished , like when he's said all there is to say and there's no need to offer any more overinflated claims, then I don't mind sharing some practical aspects. The focus will be on climber safety and swiftness of method, not how big you can go. The bigger you go, the more apt there is to be a mistake.

So newguy, carry on. You can be a pretty darn entertaining bloke. Just let us know when you're finished. Thank you.

newguy18

I still have to go back and tell about all the nasty trees i did and how i shame every tree guy in my area.Seriously Jim,your a good,guy,very smart go ahead,i've said my piece,i'm going back to bed,my chest is killing me.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

Eric Frei

Bill, butt hitching using large dia ropes taking wraps in the tree is pretty much the best way to go. Even McMahon does that with huge sections .... noting that they have the head room due to height of the trees.

By taking the wraps up in the tree you also reduce the doubling effect which blocks bring about.

__________________

jim1nz

Thankyou Ekka!

When talking about McMahon, he has a hell of a lot of experience with big stuff and it is all precision rigging, no guess work. Hes calculating everything down to the minor detail thats no joke.

Back to topic, for sure TM is very experienced with solo rigging and im sure has learnt from his mistakes from many years practical years. I wouldnt know but i would guess he wouldnt have done his first solo rigging in 100ft trees. It would be interesting to see TM's systems and how its all done but no one wants to teach something that someone else can get hurt doing.

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

jim1nz

TM and others

Believe it or not, im going to be working in German forests shortly picking Spruse and Fir cones for seed. There they have very strict seed eco sourcing laws to protect tree quality in stands there. So we are going around the country to desirable stands and climbing these trees for seed with the baumkletterteam.

My predicament is getting full cone bags weighing upto 70kg down the trees with out the bag bursting. Trees are around 50-70m tall. The normal procedure is to fill the bags with 50kg and simply throw them from the top of the tree, hoping they dont either explode on impact or get ripped open on the way down spilling Euros everywhere.

What would anyone recommend here? A lowering system may be just part way down then dropping the bags the rest of the way?

Seems like there would be some resemblance in solo rigging branches as getting these bags to the ground. What do you think?

May be i should start another thread?

__________________
SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

newguy18

Maybe use the tail of your climbline,or carry a small but long line like a tag line and a small pulley.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

newguy18

I thought thats what i've been saying all along[besides feeding my ego].I know it reduces the doubling effect as well,but it also tends to shock the trunk or limb more.I like to have a short 50' rope thats over a inch in diameter for butt hooking,lets say i'm taking a top out,i'll leave about a 2' stub right below my notch,for the lowering line,the butt hook rope will be tied below the stub with a spread clove hitch,the tied to the top with either a clove hich or running bowline,after i place the backcut and the top goes over,i'll tie the lowering line to it and send it down,or if its a big section,rappel down and cut pieces off then lower it.Oh and Jim,no doubt Mcmahon is one of the best tree guys out there.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler