To TOP or Not to TOP

TREE-SURFER · 12th February 2008, 02:48 AM

With the ever increasing trees that are mutilated by TOPPING (Lions Tailing, Hatracking, Rounding over, stub ending, etc. etc.) and the tree topping crews thinking that it is ok to do so and the local authorities not giving a monkies, it has come to where local experts world-wide to make a stand. Once we have collated enough evidence here, with what local experts say, with documentation if need be, we can all approach our Authorities with the evidence to have this kind of mutilation, BANNED......

arborjockey · 12th February 2008, 06:20 AM

I second that brother. Behind you 100%. In what industry can you do the wrong thing (top) for 25-30years and stay in buisness? Come on!

There is a hole town up here that over the last 20 years has been topped. The hole town....And guess what? Now that company is doing all the removals on those trees they ruined and killed. The trees were planted by the city. They were on sidewalks so we all know what the maintence is on that. Big $. I would not be lying when I said this company has cost the city and its residence well over a million in tree work. The $ to plant, the $ to maintain, the $ to top, and now the $ to remove. Hell they will probably be contracted to plant new ones. And why does this happen? Only because REAL arborist are to scared to unite and condem them.. Expose the tree killers. The thing is it takes so long for the tree to die. You get huge open wounds for disease, then witchs broom with poor branch union, now you got a diseased tree with poor branch unions being a hazard during its 10-30 year decline tell death. Over pedestrian sidewalks! People find it unbuisness like to talk s--- about another company. Hell Ill let um know. Ill point trees out that they can drive by and look at that, that company has done. Well if i was an owner and had a family to feed things may be differnt on the s-- talking if it hinderd my profit. who knows????

TREE-SURFER · 13th February 2008, 07:16 AM

Here are just a few reasons as to Why Not to Top

Vector Tree · 13th February 2008, 05:18 PM

nope never top

Vector Tree · 13th February 2008, 05:19 PM

bigshea13 · 13th February 2008, 10:01 PM

topping is definatly not pleasing to the eye nor is it benificial to the longevity of the tree. in 90 percent of the cases its due to improper training or lack of proper technique. no doubt one of you is going to read this and rip me a new one but as most of you already know i really dont give a shit what anyone else thinks im going to post it anyhow.
Ive been in the game for the last 15 years... for the last 5 years ive been doing tree care on my own. ive traveled half way across the country and back pruning, planting and removing trees in a wide variety of situations and enviroments. ive grown to take extreme pride in my work. one of my abilities that gratifies me the most is my ability to shape to the customers liking. it took me alot of years and tons of practice to be able to look at a tree and round, flatten, stretch,ect it to fit the desired look that an owner is wanting.
ive returned to the line clearance end of it all again. what a change. no more do i have the option to properly groom and shape and place all the proper cuts that i would normally install doing private work. i now find myself settling for "less than perfect" standards of tree care. im now required to "produce". in order to get the needed amount done i have to cut corners on either the safety of my crew or the quality of my work. its a no brainer for me......seeings how my brother and my best friend work on my crew the trees come second.
i try very hard to do the best i can in the time alloted but im here to tell ya it doesnt always turn out as planned. my new boss approached me last week and told me that if he were going to have anyone trim the trees in his yard it would be me ,but...............he needed more from me production wise. he said that its a matter of vegitative control. if the trees get into the lines its a potential for outages and possibly physical harm to people or their property. the trees are in the utilities right of way. they could just remove them and have nothing left or they can adapt and use alternitive methods of trimming ie...topping in some cases.
i went from 15 trees a day to thirty. last tuesday i topped 66 spruce. the utility is NOT going to pay to have the trees cared for like everyone wants..its just not gonna happen. guys liek me have two choices
1 quit
2 try our damnest to do the best we can to make the trees we have to cut out of the power line look as pleasing as possible

and as i said before...sometimes when your in a hurry they just dont turn out. maybe the lines are burried deeper than origionally thought and by the time youve obtained the proper clearence there is really nothing left to work with.
topping is not good but sometimes its the only solution other than complete removal. if theres no power to turn on your outside lights you wont see your tres in the dark and if theres no power to run your furnaces youll probably have to cut your trees down to keep warm and if you dont have power you wont be surfin tree world.
the next time you see a topped tree under a power line think about the options if there may have been any that the guy who did it had other than to remove it. if you say,"then remove it" think of how it would look if all the trees under all the lines were removed. the world would look like a giant parking lot.

quercus · 13th February 2008, 10:25 PM

pardon my french, mate... But I don't think you'll need a poll to vote on this.
Every arb here knows the answer of every other arb. Or is this a method to filter out hacks on the forum?

windthrown · 13th February 2008, 10:35 PM

Yah, they call that pollarding around here. I had a house in California with a Sycamore that had been pollarded (stump pruned, butchered, etc) before I bought the place. It was in a tree city, and they would not give me a permit to cut it down. So it was always a pain in the arse to keep that thing pruned; it had a thousand skinny branches growing at 20 and 40 ft high. It took me 5 years to get good limbs and branches growing on that tree again.

mdvaden · 13th February 2008, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quercus

pardon my french, mate... But I don't think you'll need a poll to vote on this.
Every arb here knows the answer of every other arb. Or is this a method to filter out hacks on the forum?

This is amusing.

I was pruning a fruitless mulberry tree yesterday, just light thinning and directing it from the house (a bit more than consulting arborist).

And then there were these 3 ten foot tall Austrian pines close to the fence that were planted with the intent of being "bushes" - not tall trees.

So part of the job was to take the top growth off.

They were so thick, I couldn't see what the inside looked like when bidding, but once I started to prune them, I could see the big stub cuts from a prior cutting. Probably was "topping" due to the stubs protruding beyond the unions of limbs below.

So my son was helping on this one. He does not work with me much. But as I'm working on this pine, I say, "Michael, it might be hard to tell inside this mess, but what looks like me topping here is actually crown reduction, because I'm actually planning and thinking about what I'm doing" - as I chuckle and laugh.

Honestly, I don't really even like "crown reduction". Too bad it has to have it's place.

Therrin · 14th February 2008, 01:39 AM

Quote:

And then there were these 3 ten foot tall Austrian pines close to the fence that were planted with the intent of being "bushes" - not tall trees.

So part of the job was to take the top growth off.

Taking "top growth" off of a PINE TREE is TOPPING. Don't plant a tree with the intent of it being a bush! WTF? Plant a damn bush! I see topped pines around here all the time, they're ugly as hell, they look retarded.

Quote:

I say, "Michael, it might be hard to tell inside this mess, but what looks like me topping here is actually crown reduction, because I'm actually planning and thinking about what I'm doing" - as I chuckle and laugh.

Honestly, I don't really even like "crown reduction". Too bad it has to have it's place.

So you're suggesting that taking the "top growth" from a pine, as long as you're thinking about what your doing, isn't topping?? What kind of bullshit is this? You can't go teaching your son that kind of stuff!
You're saying that topping is alright, as long as you're thinking about what you're doing, and just calling it "crown reduction" instead??? I can't beleive this!

What Arborist certification do you have that taught you this kind of practice as being okay? This is HACK WORK.

True crown reduction has a definite place. To claim otherwise shows pure ignorance.

Quote:

Trees sometimes grow larger than desired for aesthetic or safety considerations. These trees may interfere with overhead utility wires, grow into buildings or other trees, or become hazardous because of their size, stems and branches.
.....
Reduction pruning performed after the tree has become too large could require the removal of large diameter stems. The resulting wounds can be accompanied by decay, cracks, and sprout development. Therefore, it is preferable to perform reduction before the tree has become too large for its environement. Proper reduction pruning reduces size while more-or-less maintaining a tree's natrual form and minimizes regrowth.

Objectives: There can be several objectives of reduction pruning 1) reduce tree size; 2) reduce a portion of the tree to provide clearance from a structure; 3) reduce a portion of the canopy to minimize risk of failure.
.....
Consideration must also be given to the ability of the species to sustain this type of pruning. Species that are known to decay quickly from these types of cuts should be reduction pruned more conservatively than more decay resistant species. Never reduce a landscape tree by topping it. Topping causes decay, numerous sprouts, cracks in limbs, root decline, bark defects, and other problems.- From "Reducing the Canopy" -Gilman

Note: propper reduction pruning reduces size while more-or-less maintaining a trees natural form. TOPPING a pine completely slaughters it's natural form. The branches just underneath grow to a height higher than the topped section after several years, and the result is a dished-out looking top structure, looking NOTHING like a normal pine.

NEVER REDUCE A LANDSCAPE TREE BY TOPPING!

It causes decay, cracks in limbs, root decline, bark defects and other problems!

Telling your SON of all people, that what you are doing is alright merely because you're thinking about it and saying it out loud doesn't make it okay!

If someone asked me to "top those pines, because I'm using them for bushes" I'd try to explain they are TREES! not bushes! And then I'd try to educate them of what kind of harm they are intending to have done, and what the results could be instead of blindly just saying "gee, okay" and doing it.

TREE-SURFER · 14th February 2008, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quercus

pardon my french, mate... But I don't think you'll need a poll to vote on this.
Every arb here knows the answer of every other arb. Or is this a method to filter out hacks on the forum?

Quercus, hopefully, with enough collated evidence/professional opinions, we can all approach our local Authorities with the findings and help have TOPPING banned. We all know that it is unacceptable 'pruning' and that it is damaging to the trees health, as smoking in a confined puplic place is as harmful to other peoples health and is therefore banned in our country.

What I expect from this poll, is to have honest answers, we are all here as professionals, (input and knowing others on this Forum, proves that), and our Forum leader would soon spot a Hack form the start, I'd say.

Therrin · 14th February 2008, 05:44 AM

I've spotted a hack already, didn't take very long.

Funny thing is, when I look up "Certified Landscape Technician Arborist" in Google, it comes up with 6 matches.

SIX....

There are 53 matches on Yahoo, most of them pointing to sites that Mvaden is affiliated with. It sounds like a made-up title for a glorified greenskeeper who takes a pair of pruning clippers to the occasional fruit tree.

These were the resulting areas found in the search, under that heading (of what little I could find):

Landscaping
Turf management
Perennials
Poa control
Sports turf
Hardy roses
Small Tree care
Small Tree diseases
Pruning

Mmmmm... the truth comes out. It's a very small program for people who clip grass so that it looks nice when other's putt their balls across it. And for people who work with flowers, bushes, hedges, grasses, and small decorative trees.

I suppose expecting someone like that to know about proper LARGE tree practices and procedures would be a bit far-fetched, even if they do somehow have "arborist" in their "title".

My appologies to the groundskeeper.

Quote:

Honestly, I don't really even like "crown reduction". Too bad it has to have it's place.

Yes, I think true crown reduction is one of the most difficult aspects of pruning to properly pull off. It is difficult to do well, and therefore takes skill, knowledge, and training. Probably best left to those whose title is much more simply, "Arborist".

Ekka · 14th February 2008, 05:57 AM

In the spirit of "topping" then this tree had a "siding" too.

Around here I get phone calls all the time where people ask for a quote to give their trees a "hair cut".

Today driving around I spotted this semi-mature tallowood that received a "haircut".

These are also refered to as topping and hat racking. Like a hat rack on a coat stand etc.

At times I feel like the only idiot trying to persuade people otherwise. I also feel as though no customer knows anything else.

I have even had people ring and ask if I am an arborist coz they want their tree pruned properly. I get there and they ask for what you see below, but they insist they want it done properly.

I then ask them to expand on the properly part since they're the experts on tree pruning and care. Wow, some of the answers are just great, then I ask them what they do for a real job coz it sure aint trees. Ends up their occupation has nothing to do with ours. Then comes the 15 minutes of explanation, examples, and heck standing there I dont need pictures I just look up and down the street to find a topped tree, they're always around which in the customers eyes means it's OK to do it.

Anyway, all that sort of pruning is stupid, and if you are a home-owner reading this then get an arborist and ask them what is best and why, but get a good one or some fool will start to kill your tree with pruning or disfigure it.

This page of mine covers pruning in general and has some info on true pollarding.

We are all about trees - qualified tree pruning Brisbane

Sean Freeman · 14th February 2008, 06:57 AM

Mario I'm really unsure what you are trying to say with your post?

Perhaps you're trying to make say that in small confined landscapes you feel that clients that own trees and want them to fit into that space have the right to top them/severely reduce/drop crotch etc...Perhaps you're making a allusion to the dilemma BigShea13 outlined in his post about Utility Arb work and the conflict between electrical asset management/maintenance and tree management, I don't know....I'm not really sure what the tree species is that you're calling Austrlian Pine...Callitris columnar?

I know from having read your posts here and more so elsewhere, TB Arbsite and some of the garden forums in the US, that you know very well why topping is not acceptable practice, why it is substandard work in so many ways.
I also know that you take issue with the way in which some people carry out harsh reductions (going beyond the 25% rule) and call it pruning when it is to all intent and purpose topping/lopping, semantics to escape criticism.

I'm not going to jump on you for the post since I really don't understand just what exactly you are trying to say, I would like to know what the tree species was if you care to tell us, and why you felt it appropriate to carry out the work that you yourself describe in such a disparaging way.

TreeDimensional · 14th February 2008, 08:52 AM

Ekka, I think you missed the boat on your last picture. The "Beware of Dog" sign should be modified the read "Beware of Tree Butcher"

Yes we are preaching to the choir here, BUT if someone would like to assemble a link of "International Arborists Against Topping". I would gladly promote it. I hand out the ISA pamphlet "Why Topping Hurts Trees", and can honestly state that ALL my clients minds have been changed once they are enlightened.

Since the ISA isn't as International as Tree World is, I think a document produced by the members here would even drive the point home better.

View Poll Results: To TOP or Not to TOP
For	1	2.86%
Against	34	97.14%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

12th February 2008, 06:20 AM	#2 (permalink)
arborjockey Fly'n Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: hawaii. ohio. oregon. california Posts: 118	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP I second that brother. Behind you 100%. In what industry can you do the wrong thing (top) for 25-30years and stay in buisness? Come on! There is a hole town up here that over the last 20 years has been topped. The hole town....And guess what? Now that company is doing all the removals on those trees they ruined and killed. The trees were planted by the city. They were on sidewalks so we all know what the maintence is on that. Big $. I would not be lying when I said this company has cost the city and its residence well over a million in tree work. The $ to plant, the $ to maintain, the $ to top, and now the $ to remove. Hell they will probably be contracted to plant new ones. And why does this happen? Only because REAL arborist are to scared to unite and condem them.. Expose the tree killers. The thing is it takes so long for the tree to die. You get huge open wounds for disease, then witchs broom with poor branch union, now you got a diseased tree with poor branch unions being a hazard during its 10-30 year decline tell death. Over pedestrian sidewalks! People find it unbuisness like to talk s--- about another company. Hell Ill let um know. Ill point trees out that they can drive by and look at that, that company has done. Well if i was an owner and had a family to feed things may be differnt on the s-- talking if it hinderd my profit. who knows????

13th February 2008, 05:18 PM	#4 (permalink)
Vector Tree Gettin' motoring Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: florida Posts: 11	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP nope never top

13th February 2008, 05:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
Vector Tree Gettin' motoring Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: florida Posts: 11	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP

13th February 2008, 10:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
bigshea13 Afterburner is shakin' Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 388	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP topping is definatly not pleasing to the eye nor is it benificial to the longevity of the tree. in 90 percent of the cases its due to improper training or lack of proper technique. no doubt one of you is going to read this and rip me a new one but as most of you already know i really dont give a shit what anyone else thinks im going to post it anyhow. Ive been in the game for the last 15 years... for the last 5 years ive been doing tree care on my own. ive traveled half way across the country and back pruning, planting and removing trees in a wide variety of situations and enviroments. ive grown to take extreme pride in my work. one of my abilities that gratifies me the most is my ability to shape to the customers liking. it took me alot of years and tons of practice to be able to look at a tree and round, flatten, stretch,ect it to fit the desired look that an owner is wanting. ive returned to the line clearance end of it all again. what a change. no more do i have the option to properly groom and shape and place all the proper cuts that i would normally install doing private work. i now find myself settling for "less than perfect" standards of tree care. im now required to "produce". in order to get the needed amount done i have to cut corners on either the safety of my crew or the quality of my work. its a no brainer for me......seeings how my brother and my best friend work on my crew the trees come second. i try very hard to do the best i can in the time alloted but im here to tell ya it doesnt always turn out as planned. my new boss approached me last week and told me that if he were going to have anyone trim the trees in his yard it would be me ,but...............he needed more from me production wise. he said that its a matter of vegitative control. if the trees get into the lines its a potential for outages and possibly physical harm to people or their property. the trees are in the utilities right of way. they could just remove them and have nothing left or they can adapt and use alternitive methods of trimming ie...topping in some cases. i went from 15 trees a day to thirty. last tuesday i topped 66 spruce. the utility is NOT going to pay to have the trees cared for like everyone wants..its just not gonna happen. guys liek me have two choices 1 quit 2 try our damnest to do the best we can to make the trees we have to cut out of the power line look as pleasing as possible and as i said before...sometimes when your in a hurry they just dont turn out. maybe the lines are burried deeper than origionally thought and by the time youve obtained the proper clearence there is really nothing left to work with. topping is not good but sometimes its the only solution other than complete removal. if theres no power to turn on your outside lights you wont see your tres in the dark and if theres no power to run your furnaces youll probably have to cut your trees down to keep warm and if you dont have power you wont be surfin tree world. the next time you see a topped tree under a power line think about the options if there may have been any that the guy who did it had other than to remove it. if you say,"then remove it" think of how it would look if all the trees under all the lines were removed. the world would look like a giant parking lot.

13th February 2008, 10:25 PM	#7 (permalink)
quercus Afterburner is shakin' Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 414	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP pardon my french, mate... But I don't think you'll need a poll to vote on this. Every arb here knows the answer of every other arb. Or is this a method to filter out hacks on the forum?

13th February 2008, 10:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
windthrown Fly'n Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 125	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP Yah, they call that pollarding around here. I had a house in California with a Sycamore that had been pollarded (stump pruned, butchered, etc) before I bought the place. It was in a tree city, and they would not give me a permit to cut it down. So it was always a pain in the arse to keep that thing pruned; it had a thousand skinny branches growing at 20 and 40 ft high. It took me 5 years to get good limbs and branches growing on that tree again. __________________ So few saws, so many trees... Stihls: 210/250-/025/290/361/FS85 Echo: CS-3000, Olympyk & Mac doorstops

14th February 2008, 06:57 AM	#14 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP Mario I'm really unsure what you are trying to say with your post? Perhaps you're trying to make say that in small confined landscapes you feel that clients that own trees and want them to fit into that space have the right to top them/severely reduce/drop crotch etc...Perhaps you're making a allusion to the dilemma BigShea13 outlined in his post about Utility Arb work and the conflict between electrical asset management/maintenance and tree management, I don't know....I'm not really sure what the tree species is that you're calling Austrlian Pine...Callitris columnar? I know from having read your posts here and more so elsewhere, TB Arbsite and some of the garden forums in the US, that you know very well why topping is not acceptable practice, why it is substandard work in so many ways. I also know that you take issue with the way in which some people carry out harsh reductions (going beyond the 25% rule) and call it pruning when it is to all intent and purpose topping/lopping, semantics to escape criticism. I'm not going to jump on you for the post since I really don't understand just what exactly you are trying to say, I would like to know what the tree species was if you care to tell us, and why you felt it appropriate to carry out the work that you yourself describe in such a disparaging way. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

14th February 2008, 08:52 AM	#15 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Afterburner is shakin' Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP Ekka, I think you missed the boat on your last picture. The "Beware of Dog" sign should be modified the read "Beware of Tree Butcher" Yes we are preaching to the choir here, BUT if someone would like to assemble a link of "International Arborists Against Topping". I would gladly promote it. I hand out the ISA pamphlet "Why Topping Hurts Trees", and can honestly state that ALL my clients minds have been changed once they are enlightened. Since the ISA isn't as International as Tree World is, I think a document produced by the members here would even drive the point home better. __________________ West Central Saskatchewan ISA Certified Arborist Last edited by TreeDimensional : 14th February 2008 at 09:00 AM. Reason: Content