To TOP or Not to TOP

windthrown · 15th February 2008, 07:07 PM

Well, many street trees here in the West US are topped, in the name of pollarding, as my sycamore tree was at my house in CA. Typically they will cut well over 40% or more of height and leave the stumps to grow back again. I have seen it done on sycamore, London plain, black walnut, maple, and several other species. They basically cut them and then come back every few years and cut them back to the stubs, or cut new stumps. Now, there are also old estates that I have seen that have real pollarded trees in them, expecially some of the old Spanish villas and older Italian houses. Those are pollarded low and when young, as Eric has on his site.

Therrin · 16th February 2008, 02:44 AM

If it can fall on you and kill you, then it's a tree. If you work on such trees, are you an arborist?

I've dismantled Pines that were 165ft+, done crown reductions on elms, poplars, birch, ash and others. Thinned and dead-wooded alot of stuff. Worked on big trees, small trees, suggested the planting of trees, planted them, removed trees, chipped trees, treated trees, etc.

After all that, I still refuse to call myself an arborist. Who among you would? I am not certified, and so I am not an arborist. I think certification is required.

So far, noone has voted that they would top trees, on the poll. Except that several of you are leaning in that direction, you just aren't truthfull about it.

Furthermore.... check out the Wikipedia page on "pruning". Mvaden's link is at the bottom, he supports the content of that page, and if you'll notice, there is a very supportive clause for topping:

Quote:

Topping: Topping is a very severe form of pruning which involves removing all branches and growths down to a few large branches or to the trunk of the tree. When performed correctly it is used on very young trees, and can be used to begin training younger trees for pollarding or for trellising to form an espalier.

This states that topping is severe but ACCEPTED as a form of PRUNING. Mvaden is an additive part of this page, with a link at the bottom supporting the page's contents. Topping is downplayed as correctly being used on "very young trees", though still referred to as "topping" and still being said that it can be done correctly.

Therefore, there is no argument that Mvaden supports the TOPPING of trees.

windthrown · 16th February 2008, 11:55 AM

Well, I am not a certified or licensed arborist (no such thing when I had a landscaping business in CA at the time), but I did get certified and licensed in horticulture and landscape design back then, and I have a recent certificate in silviculture. Different scale than arborist, taking care of stands, but it is all about trees just the same. I take care of large stands of trees now (85 acres here, and on some larger parcels of land that I own elsewhere). I do not climb that much any more, and I did not specialize in trees in the horticulture business with my brother. However, we pruned and felled a hell of a lot of trees. Monterey Pines and coastal live oaks, especially, and I did a large amount of fruit tree pruning there (for both ornamental and fruiting).

My point being that being licensed or certified is not the holy grail on the path to arborist glory. We span the globe here, and having a certificate or license here does not mean the same thing down under, or in Europe, or anywhere else. Certification varies quite a lot by country, state and region. I have seen licensed arborists in San Diego absolutely DESTROY every fruit spur on a stone and pome fruit orchard. They pruned them like lemons... wrong way to do that. I also know some people that have never been certified, or licensed, but they can prune an orchard to perfection, or prune a whole town of street trees and do it right. In other words, certificatin does not always mean great quality in terms of pruning trees, and not being certified does not always mean you are an idiot that does not know a leaf from a root. And there are circumstances that are outside of the typical suburban and urban settign, as well as outside the typical forest plantation setting where terms, knowledge, and things like arborist licenses get blurred.

For example, here we have 20-30 species of native trees, and we are doing a lot of thinning, harvesting and slective cutting for a variety of situations on these properties. Currently we are thinning a restoring a 4 acre oak grove that is over 400 years old. The grove itself is a remnant of the Indian tribes that lived here (the Yoncalla tribe of the greater Calapooya Native American Indians). They burned the fields around here in late summer months to keep open areas for hunting game. Since the last select cut up there 20 years ago, the grand and doug firs have invaded and are beginning to crown crowd the trees for light. They are also taking away the fire resistance of the oaks; if a fire were to come through the firs would go up like torches and burn the oak canopy. So we are removing all the firs and removing the dead oaks and doing some oak thinning.

Yah, it is not pruning in the sence of an arborist, but... it is still pruning and selective thinning, on a large scale. And for unusual reasons and purposes. But this is one of the few remaining stands of this type around here. These are California Black Oaks, at the northern most region that they grow. We have had to come up with our own requirements, debate with the forestry guy that is doing the Rx for us (for property tax reasons in this state) and go against the 'plant it all in Doug fir' mentality that pervades this area by all the local timber professionals. I mean, we could have felled all the oaks and cut them into firewood, and moved the area into high value commercial fir production, just like everything else around here. And I mean everything: there are stands for hundreds of square miles around here that are nothing but Douglas fir trees in various stages of the clear-cutting cycle. Trees here are just long term crops. And in that relm, tree topping here is a part of the felling technique during cutting.

Anyway, what were we talking about???

TREE-SURFER · 16th February 2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

Furthermore.... check out the Wikipedia page on "pruning". Mvaden's link is at the bottom, he supports the content of that page, and if you'll notice, there is a very supportive clause for topping:

This states that topping is severe but ACCEPTED as a form of PRUNING. Mvaden is an additive part of this page, with a link at the bottom supporting the page's contents. Topping is downplayed as correctly being used on "very young trees", though still referred to as "topping" and still being said that it can be done correctly.

Therrin, the whole point that I started this thread, is indeed, the fact that some authorities, accept topping as a form of pruning. Some do it, most do not.
I would rather hope that a lot of people here would vote, (truthfully), and explain their reasons for and against TOPPING and publish the findings (if people here that voted, would give their permission to do so, and give these findings to the local authorities who can have it banned.

Ekka · 16th February 2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windthrown

Trees here are just long term crops. And in that relm, tree topping here is a part of the felling technique during cutting.

What do you mean here, that if you cant fell a tree whole you climb up and take the top out then fell whats' left?

I think that is what you mean but the thread is aimed at topping and leaving what's left in an amenity tree situation (excludes fruit trees and forestry etc, only for ornamental trees).

Therrin · 17th February 2008, 02:30 AM

I'm seriously doubting that all involved to this point have voted honestly, more likely to save face than anything else.

I suppose I conduct the "work" of an arborist, but I haven't been familiar with the supposed fact that if you work with "live trees" you can call yourself an arborist without being cert'd. That one just doesn't strike me so well, so I don't use it as a trump card, as I'm certain other's do just to elevate their position in the overall scheme of things. I'd rather be honest than lie through my teeth just to obtain contracts.

TREE-SURFER · 17th February 2008, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

I'm seriously doubting that all involved to this point have voted honestly, more likely to save face than anything else.

I suppose I conduct the "work" of an arborist, but I haven't been familiar with the supposed fact that if you work with "live trees" you can call yourself an arborist without being cert'd. That one just doesn't strike me so well, so I don't use it as a trump card, as I'm certain other's do just to elevate their position in the overall scheme of things. I'd rather be honest than lie through my teeth just to obtain contracts.

I am pretty certain, that all have answered honestly. Therrin, don't forget that home-owners can buy a chainsaw and mutilate their trees also and not just the qualified. I have a brochure that I hand out quite regular. On it is a picture as to why 'I' don't top and an explanation to back that up. I'm sure, like others here, that it would be pretty demeaning to their companies, that are mostly advertised on the WWW and have a link to this forum, that anybody doing their home-work before hiring a 'Tree Feller/Fella' would be able to see the comments made here too.
The whole project that I am undertaking is to have TOPPING banned. And that means that no one is allowed to do it....

Therrin · 17th February 2008, 03:45 AM

You might be interested in having Mvaden's "pruning" page on wikipedia changed then so that the entire WORLD doesn't see that
"topping is an acceptable form of pruning when done correctly."

I'm not bashing him for the hell of it, rather for the topic, and the fact that he is specifically endorsing it, as well as attaining advertisement from it.

TREE-SURFER · 17th February 2008, 04:07 AM

Mario is a certified Arbo and has the credentials to prove that. ISA and search "Vaden".
This poll was started and i quote myself

Quote:

With the ever increasing trees that are mutilated by TOPPING (Lions Tailing, Hatracking, Rounding over, stub ending, etc. etc.) and the tree topping crews thinking that it is ok to do so and the local authorities not giving a monkies, it has come to where local experts world-wide to make a stand. Once we have collated enough evidence here, with what local experts say, with documentation if need be, we can all approach our Authorities with the evidence to have this kind of mutilation, BANNED......

This poll is not a target point to discredit others, if that was the case, I would name and shame all that I know here on our Island.

windthrown · 17th February 2008, 10:55 PM

Therrin · 18th February 2008, 12:51 AM

Well amongst all of this seriousness, I'm glad someone's getting tanked.... good on ya Windthrown =)

dguntertrees · 18th February 2008, 02:28 AM

Is this debate still going on?
Well I guess it must be necessary then.
You've probably all read Ekkas site by now, but its worth noting (again) that Pollarding is an old form of tree management and that it has created many of the most striking trees in the UK. I have seen 300-400 year old willow trees on the Somerset levels (up to 3 metres DBH) that would not be there had they not been pollarded. they are now fantastic, twisted, gnarley things that are a bitch to climb, as they snap (as all willows do, pollarded or not), and are often full of ivy. They are also often adjacent to roads (as they historically marked farm boundaries etc) and, therefore often below powerlines. SO. My question is this: do you take these trees out rather than re-pollard? If you do, you are a fool. These historic trees have been managed by humans for hundreds of years, provide habitat for native wildlife (foxes, badgers, bats, birds, invertebrates) that would not exist if they had not been pollarded, they are also often historically, geographically and culturally significant.
Each tree must be managed on its own merits, in some cases this means doing nothing..cest la vie.

This does NOT mean that I am pro-lopping, I'm not, it means that we are lucky enough to work in a profession which can turn all you've learnt on its head and make you THINK about what you are doing, sometimes every day.

For the record, I don't think that MD was advocating lopping at all. Thats not how I read it anyway.

DG

Therrin · 18th February 2008, 06:20 PM

I'm not trying to "continue bashing him", but I think that several of you aren't looking at what I was talking about. It isn't as much his post on this thread, as much as when you look up "PRUNING" on wikipedia.

They even labeled the BBR as the branch collar...

would YOU want your name at the bottom of that page?

Pruning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ekka · 18th February 2008, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

You might be interested in having Mvaden's "pruning" page on wikipedia changed then so that the entire WORLD doesn't see that
"topping is an acceptable form of pruning when done correctly."

I'm not bashing him for the hell of it, rather for the topic, and the fact that he is specifically endorsing it, as well as attaining advertisement from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

I'm not trying to "continue bashing him", but I think that several of you aren't looking at what I was talking about. It isn't as much his post on this thread, as much as when you look up "PRUNING" on wikipedia.

They even labeled the BBR as the branch collar...

would YOU want your name at the bottom of that page?

Pruning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here you go, a new thread.

HELP!! - Wikipedia Definition of Pruning

Therrin · 18th February 2008, 10:50 PM

Woohoo, check that out, a new thread!!!

View Poll Results: To TOP or Not to TOP
For	1	2.86%
Against	34	97.14%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

15th February 2008, 07:07 PM	#26 (permalink)
windthrown Fly'n Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 125	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP Well, many street trees here in the West US are topped, in the name of pollarding, as my sycamore tree was at my house in CA. Typically they will cut well over 40% or more of height and leave the stumps to grow back again. I have seen it done on sycamore, London plain, black walnut, maple, and several other species. They basically cut them and then come back every few years and cut them back to the stubs, or cut new stumps. Now, there are also old estates that I have seen that have real pollarded trees in them, expecially some of the old Spanish villas and older Italian houses. Those are pollarded low and when young, as Eric has on his site. __________________ So few saws, so many trees... Stihls: 210/250-/025/290/361/FS85 Echo: CS-3000, Olympyk & Mac doorstops

16th February 2008, 11:55 AM	#28 (permalink)
windthrown Fly'n Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 125	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP Well, I am not a certified or licensed arborist (no such thing when I had a landscaping business in CA at the time), but I did get certified and licensed in horticulture and landscape design back then, and I have a recent certificate in silviculture. Different scale than arborist, taking care of stands, but it is all about trees just the same. I take care of large stands of trees now (85 acres here, and on some larger parcels of land that I own elsewhere). I do not climb that much any more, and I did not specialize in trees in the horticulture business with my brother. However, we pruned and felled a hell of a lot of trees. Monterey Pines and coastal live oaks, especially, and I did a large amount of fruit tree pruning there (for both ornamental and fruiting). My point being that being licensed or certified is not the holy grail on the path to arborist glory. We span the globe here, and having a certificate or license here does not mean the same thing down under, or in Europe, or anywhere else. Certification varies quite a lot by country, state and region. I have seen licensed arborists in San Diego absolutely DESTROY every fruit spur on a stone and pome fruit orchard. They pruned them like lemons... wrong way to do that. I also know some people that have never been certified, or licensed, but they can prune an orchard to perfection, or prune a whole town of street trees and do it right. In other words, certificatin does not always mean great quality in terms of pruning trees, and not being certified does not always mean you are an idiot that does not know a leaf from a root. And there are circumstances that are outside of the typical suburban and urban settign, as well as outside the typical forest plantation setting where terms, knowledge, and things like arborist licenses get blurred. For example, here we have 20-30 species of native trees, and we are doing a lot of thinning, harvesting and slective cutting for a variety of situations on these properties. Currently we are thinning a restoring a 4 acre oak grove that is over 400 years old. The grove itself is a remnant of the Indian tribes that lived here (the Yoncalla tribe of the greater Calapooya Native American Indians). They burned the fields around here in late summer months to keep open areas for hunting game. Since the last select cut up there 20 years ago, the grand and doug firs have invaded and are beginning to crown crowd the trees for light. They are also taking away the fire resistance of the oaks; if a fire were to come through the firs would go up like torches and burn the oak canopy. So we are removing all the firs and removing the dead oaks and doing some oak thinning. Yah, it is not pruning in the sence of an arborist, but... it is still pruning and selective thinning, on a large scale. And for unusual reasons and purposes. But this is one of the few remaining stands of this type around here. These are California Black Oaks, at the northern most region that they grow. We have had to come up with our own requirements, debate with the forestry guy that is doing the Rx for us (for property tax reasons in this state) and go against the 'plant it all in Doug fir' mentality that pervades this area by all the local timber professionals. I mean, we could have felled all the oaks and cut them into firewood, and moved the area into high value commercial fir production, just like everything else around here. And I mean everything: there are stands for hundreds of square miles around here that are nothing but Douglas fir trees in various stages of the clear-cutting cycle. Trees here are just long term crops. And in that relm, tree topping here is a part of the felling technique during cutting. Anyway, what were we talking about??? __________________ So few saws, so many trees... Stihls: 210/250-/025/290/361/FS85 Echo: CS-3000, Olympyk & Mac doorstops

17th February 2008, 02:30 AM	#31 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP I'm seriously doubting that all involved to this point have voted honestly, more likely to save face than anything else. I suppose I conduct the "work" of an arborist, but I haven't been familiar with the supposed fact that if you work with "live trees" you can call yourself an arborist without being cert'd. That one just doesn't strike me so well, so I don't use it as a trump card, as I'm certain other's do just to elevate their position in the overall scheme of things. I'd rather be honest than lie through my teeth just to obtain contracts.

17th February 2008, 03:45 AM	#33 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP You might be interested in having Mvaden's "pruning" page on wikipedia changed then so that the entire WORLD doesn't see that "topping is an acceptable form of pruning when done correctly." I'm not bashing him for the hell of it, rather for the topic, and the fact that he is specifically endorsing it, as well as attaining advertisement from it.

17th February 2008, 10:55 PM	#35 (permalink)
windthrown Fly'n Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 125	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP __________________ So few saws, so many trees... Stihls: 210/250-/025/290/361/FS85 Echo: CS-3000, Olympyk & Mac doorstops

18th February 2008, 12:51 AM	#36 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP Well amongst all of this seriousness, I'm glad someone's getting tanked.... good on ya Windthrown =)

18th February 2008, 02:28 AM	#37 (permalink)
dguntertrees Cruisin' Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mudgeeraba, SE Queensland Posts: 94	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP Is this debate still going on? Well I guess it must be necessary then. You've probably all read Ekkas site by now, but its worth noting (again) that Pollarding is an old form of tree management and that it has created many of the most striking trees in the UK. I have seen 300-400 year old willow trees on the Somerset levels (up to 3 metres DBH) that would not be there had they not been pollarded. they are now fantastic, twisted, gnarley things that are a bitch to climb, as they snap (as all willows do, pollarded or not), and are often full of ivy. They are also often adjacent to roads (as they historically marked farm boundaries etc) and, therefore often below powerlines. SO. My question is this: do you take these trees out rather than re-pollard? If you do, you are a fool. These historic trees have been managed by humans for hundreds of years, provide habitat for native wildlife (foxes, badgers, bats, birds, invertebrates) that would not exist if they had not been pollarded, they are also often historically, geographically and culturally significant. Each tree must be managed on its own merits, in some cases this means doing nothing..cest la vie. This does NOT mean that I am pro-lopping, I'm not, it means that we are lucky enough to work in a profession which can turn all you've learnt on its head and make you THINK about what you are doing, sometimes every day. For the record, I don't think that MD was advocating lopping at all. Thats not how I read it anyway. DG

18th February 2008, 06:20 PM	#38 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP I'm not trying to "continue bashing him", but I think that several of you aren't looking at what I was talking about. It isn't as much his post on this thread, as much as when you look up "PRUNING" on wikipedia. They even labeled the BBR as the branch collar... would YOU want your name at the bottom of that page? Pruning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

18th February 2008, 10:50 PM	#40 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,112	Re: To TOP or Not to TOP Woohoo, check that out, a new thread!!!