any aus workers had council troubles?

imagineero

Hi all,
This one one goes out to any aus tree workers (or home owners for that matter!) who have had trouble with council over removed trees. The local Tree Preservation Order in my area specifies no permit required for Radiata pines up to 10m, and for most other species 4m. I often remove pines in the sub 10m category in my area for clients as they are considered a bit of a pest and tend to edge out natives.

A couple of days ago while felling a sub 10m pine for a client the neighbor came over screaming at me about what am I doing etc. I politely told her that the tree was being removed as part of a regeneration plan by the home owner and would be replanted with natives. She accused me of not having a permit and I told her that no permit was required under the local TPO for pines under 10m. She left in a bit of a huff and I continued to drop the tree, limb it and buck it up.

About an hour later the council tree management officer turned up and said he was responding to a complaint. He asked if he could enter the site and inspect the work and I gave consent without the HO being present. I showed him the tree, explained that the HO was replanting and thought that would be that.

He then questioned whether the tree was actually under 10m as it had a pretty thick base. The tree had been about half cut up into foot long sections at this stage. I showed him where the tree had probably split or been topped earlier in life and ended up with a trifurcated trunk. He hesitated after looking at it, then said he would have to measure and document the tree in case the council wanted to make legal proceedings.

At this point he went back to his car for a tape measure, and when he came back I told him I wouldn't be able to give him permission to enter the site without the HO's presence if he was intending to take legal action as I would be possibly jeopardising the HO's position and leaving myself open. We had a bit of a heated discussion where he made a few threats about fines and getting myself into hot water by not allowing him to reenter (he admitted that he wasn't allowed to enter without consent).

We ended the discussion with him talking about getting legal advice from councils solicitor and coming back to take action. Has anyone been in this position before? Looking for any and all advice. I didn't measure the tree but estimated the height based on scaling the height of my groundie from a distance. It was borderline, but under. I googled around a bit and found that my local council makes about $100,000 a year off fines for unauthorised tree removal and that when people dispute them the court often backs the council and increases the fines from $hundreds to $thousands and adds court costs.

Thanks,
Shaun

Apocalypsse

If its under 10m then the council can't win it. Do you have any pictures or does the HO have any pictures which could give an idea of its size? Neighbours really need to stfo when its not their property. I'd get onto the HO to have a word with their neighbours about minding their own business, especially when theres no breaches of council laws.

Eric Frei

Yeah, I agree.

He needs evidence and so do you, this is why height is not a very good way to manage trees for VPO's, heck some 4" dia bamboo here goes over 10m tall .... stupid rule.

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imagineero

It would be nice not to turn this into a bigger dispute than it already is. I'd rather have a friend than an enemy any day of the week Would be great if the neighbours could get along and even better for me to not step on the toes of the only tree management officer in our fairly small town who rubber stamps every permit I'm ever likely to need!

I dont have any pics but I should have taken them. Will definitely be doing this in future with a big ruler or something to scale off just to protect myself. By all accounts its a tree that shouldn't be in such a sensitive area (sitting on a creek that runs straight down a gully into national park) but the council guy insists its not a question of whether it ought to be removed or not (as that's his decision) but whether it was over or under 10m. He wasn't willing to give any opinion on whether or not it ought to be removed or if the removal was a good outcome for the community and national park.

I agree height isnt a great criteria, but in NSW its the one most often used. above certain heights you even need permits for things like privet (!). A lot of people remove things like privet and catony astor and pines without seeking permits even if they need them and nobody seems to mind.

The trouble with the way our system works is that it appears the burden of proof falls on the HO. The council can issue a fine without needing to have evidence, then if you want to defend it you need to take it to court. The fines go up very quickly if you do decide to go to court and then you have to pay the court costs of council i you lose. Since the 'on the spot' fines arent that big a lot of the time (under $1000) a lot of people just pay them rather than risking it. This earns the council approximately $100k/year according to a recent news article, which, for a cash strapped council like ours probably covers the wages of the TMO.

Drouin Tree Service

In my experience neighbors are the biggest problem in doing private trees,Start taking pictures of before and after on jobs even with your camera phone,If you had pictures you wouldn't be worried and could tell the nazi to take you to court as you have pictures which are clearly under 10m and they would either not proceed or be thrown out of court.IMO

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Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

KevinE

A couple of years ago I was removing a 15m tall sucker that had grown out of the stump of a previously removed Euc in someone's front yard. Rules are a bit different here; tree has to be 2.5m around the trunk 1m from ground level before it gets protected (that's about to get easier with new legislation pending) Anyway, I've got my witches hats & signs out & after assessing the site, start cutting. I've scarfed it & halfway through the back cut when a middle aged woman drove over my witches hats & parked her car in the driveway about 1.5m from where I was using the saw! I'm shocked & immediately stop work! Ear plugs out & try to tell her what's going on & why she should get the hell outta there! She smiled & walked straight into the house, with her small pooch. Car still in driveway, me now very cheesed off & worried that the wind might change & drop the sucker onto her car! I go to knock on door & out she storms with HO behind her. Jumps in car & leaves. Turns out she lives down the street & had gone into house demanding I cease work! Not even friends of HO! Council guy shows up when sucker on my trailer - tells me to stop work - has a quick look at stump & what's on the trailer - apologises for holding me up & leaves. What is it with neighbours!

Drouin Tree Service

99% of trouble is neighbors.

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Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

Apocalypsse

LoL, thats my favourite part. I love it when council disagrees with nosy neighbours. I and most others know the feeling of overly nosy neighbours, in my old job we got a few seconds on the news about a tree we cut down after the neighbours went quite literally batshit insane.

Kenny Koala

Neighbours are all good around here.

They hate the RCC's tree laws as well

dingo

Has anybody ever paid a damage deposit to a council when using council land to access a job and experienced hassles getting the full deposit refunded. Im curious about any memebrs experiences as i haven't done this before and I don't want to be held over a barrel for a few tyre marks on what is essentially vacant land.

derwoodii

A lot will depend upon the expectations of the bloke doing the follow up inspection. Sadly fair and reasonable means many different things to some. Perhaps ask to speak to that person before you stump up the bond $ to see what is his understanding of damage vs wear n tear is.

dingo

That's the best strategy for this one cheers mate.

Apocalypsse

Yea, a lot of councils have their standards to uphold to keep their rankings highs for open space compared with other councils. But yea, depends on the guy doing the inspections too.

Are you trying to get access to a park or what? Even a fenced off block of land counts as a park which will get maintained.

Tony Knight

Put it on the bill as an extra....

Then when or if you get back from council reimburrse it to the client as a discount, they'll love you for it.

What would be an even bigger laugh would be if the council was your client.

Seriously, I support the for mentioned posts.



Tony

dingo

Its a gum tree in a backyard that backs onto a council reserve-mowed grass. Its $2000.00 damage bond for a vehicle over 4 tonne. going to take the fence down and get the chipper up close from the back.... the client won't front that cash not before hell freezes over anyway..... the job is worth less than the bond so its not a nice feeling but thats business isn't it

Eric Frei

In the clients eyes if you make damage then you pay for it. But I always have a laugh when I see what builders do to a clients house, one rule for them another for us. Seems tree people get the short end of the stick.

Too bad if it's soft ground ..... I've walked from jobs like that with clients like that.

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Apocalypsse

Its one of those properties where the house goes from fence line to fence line with no where to drag through? Give them the price for crane hire and then see if they change their tune.

dingo

The ground should be ok once it dries up, Sydney is quite soggy at present tho so that might take a bit.

Nah actually has ok side access but the back fence comes out by undoing 6 bolts thus opening the door to unlimited stacking space with a minimal distance to drag...... I think it will be fine when the ground is hard enough and if they understand that there will be a few marks visible...

Eric Frei

Another story of nosey neighbours, now this one came across the road from what appears to be a house with no trees and camps under the tree with approval for removal stopping the tree contractors ...... so much for neighbours watching your back these days eh.

Scribbly gum protest in vain - Local News - News - General - St George & Sutherland Shire Leader
Shell Road, Burraneer - Google Maps



And a pic of the houses opposite.

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Apocalypsse

LOL, every house has a large Euc out from except hers.

I, like I'm sure most people here have experienced people as dedicated to being stupid like this.

When I was working with my old boss we had this removal on the border of Melbourne City Council, doing it for some Russian developers (the scary kind, the whole team there renovating was Russian too). ~130 yo Peppercorn right on the fence line, other side of the fence was a straight ~3m drop and a limb approx 550mm diameter was removed as well as who knows what to put in a new retaining wall + fence. We had 4 of our guys on, had another crew help us out in the arvo for a total of ~8, then about a dozen Russian builders on site.

Residents came out from pretty much every house in the court trying to stop us from taking the tree out, verbal abuse, one woman from around the corner was being racist towards the Russians. none of them got near the tree though, machines and chainsaws running flat chat seemed to keep them back a bit. They called out the police to try to stop us or fine us for parking trucks in the street, called out Melbourne City Council to try and stop us, even called channel 7 and channel 9. I heard we made it on C7 news for a few seconds. Someone from channel 9 came out and recorded some stuff and interview my old boss.

In the end the trees came down, new carpark and landscaping was put in (didn't see what replaced the trees). No one in the street had anything significant in their yards too. This was in South Yarra near the top of the hill on Punt Rd, about 3/4 of the way up after crossing the river.

Alphajaffa

more importantly does the council have any pictures of this tree, if not ,let them take to court, they have to prove the tree was said size ! if they can not they get to pay for this ! they will back down

Steve Tipton

I was on this job. We tried to start 3 days before, but were stopped that day as the developer didn't arrive with the permit as he was supposed to.
On the day of the article, everthing was in order, so we called the cops. 3 police arrived but wouldn't remove the lady, I don't know why.
We're having another go tomorrow, hopefully the full moon will have passed.
3rd time lucky?

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Heightmaster

Apocalypsse

Thats strange the police didn't remove her, surely the resident could have said she was trespassing and get her removed. Sucks for you guys though, having the day planned for that job then you can't do it because of some scrub tree hugger.

King koala

what about the breach of OHS no private citizen is legally allowed on a work site without permission of company/contractor and have to been in full ppe at all times upon entering site. I had to sign document when I got the white card to say that I would abide by the regs and could be charged and tried in a court of law if I failed to prevent injuries/deaths occuring and by failing to prevent said injuries or deaths would be held accountable due to my negligence to do so.
Just because it is a private residence does not mean that these regs dont and wont apply but nazis only obey the law when it suits them and do not or fail to understand that a house can still be a work site not to mention what we are doing is bloody dangerous normally with out them being there making the situation worse by dragging young children under the tree while you are cutting then abusing you, I mean ffs its a child you numbnut ????s what the frick do you think you are playing at?
how many different ways can I tell/yell at them that they are not allowed to be here, the lady today was a local councillor who barged right on in with no id no ppe and laid into me with out a by your leave but she really did not like my answer.
we had a climber slip and fall in the driveway of a house last year came incredibly close to losing his right eye and now cant get those full wrap around sunnies off his face for love or money.
like Ron White says you cant fix stupid , stupid is forever.